Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales
Y Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol: Grŵp Gorchwyl a Gorffen ar Ragolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru The Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee: Task and Finish Group on the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales
Dydd Iau, 1 Rhagfyr 2011 Thursday, 1 December 2011
Cynnwys Contents Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Sefydliad Materion Cymreig Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Institute for Welsh Affairs Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Media Wales Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Media Wales Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Tindle Newspapers a NWN Media Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Tindle Newspapers and NWN Media  Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg
Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir cyfieithiad Saesneg o gyfraniadau yn y Gymraeg. These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, an English translation of Welsh speeches is included.
Aelodau’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen yn bresennol Task and finish group members in attendance
Peter Black	Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats
Janet Finch-Saunders	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Bethan Jenkins	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Kenneth Skates	Llafur (Cadeirydd y Grŵp) Labour (Group Chair)
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Dr Simon Brooks	Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Welsh Language Society
Alan Edmunds	Rheolwr Gyfarwyddwr, Media Wales Managing Director, Media Wales
Aled Eirug	Cynrychiolydd, Sefydliad Materion Cymreig Representative, Institute of Welsh Affairs
Colin Nosworthy	Swyddog Cyfathrebu, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Communications Officer, Welsh Language Society
Barrie Phillips-Jones	Cyfarwyddwr Golygyddol, NWN Media Editorial Director, NWN Media
Bev Thomas	Rheolwr Gyfarwyddwr, Tindle Newspapers Managing Director, Tindle Newspapers
Hywel Wiliam	Cynrychiolydd, Sefydliad Materion Cymreig Representative, Institute of Welsh Affairs
Bethan Williams	Cadeirydd, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Chair, Welsh Language Society
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Sarah Bartlett	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Rhys Iorwerth	Ymchwilydd Researcher
Marc Wyn Jones	Clerc Clerk
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 12.34 p.m. The meeting began at 12.34 p.m.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions
[1] Kenneth Skates: For the meeting today, I say to everyone that if your phones are switched on, if you could turn them off, that would be fantastic. The meeting will be conducted bilingually. On the headsets, translation from Welsh to English is available on channel 1, and amplification on channel 0. There is no need to touch the microphones as we are now in public session. In the event of a fire alarm, please follow the ushers’ directions. There are no substitutes or apologies today. Do any Members wish to declare an interest? I see that no-one does. We will proceed—I am conscious that time is of the essence.
12.35 p.m.
Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Sefydliad Materion Cymreig Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Institute for Welsh Affairs
[2] Kenneth Skates: Many thanks for coming today and thanks for your submission—it was comprehensive and very helpful. We will begin with the current state of the media in Wales and how new technologies are impacting on this. Peter has some questions.
[3] Peter Black: In your paper you say that you are trying to challenge the assumption that Wales is powerless to influence its own media landscape. Will you expand on the main and most urgent practical steps that can be taken in this regard?
[4] Mr Wiliam: Yr wyf yn credu’n gryf bod angen i’r Llywodraeth edrych yn ofalus ar yr holl ystod o gwestiynau ynglŷn â’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru a’r diwydiant yn gyffredinol. Fel arall, bydd yn colli’r cyfle i fod yn rhan o’r drafodaeth a’r cyfle i ddatblygu polisïau penodol ar gyfer Cymru. Mae hyn yn hanfodol bwysig, nid yn unig o safbwynt treftadaeth ond hefyd o safbwynt datblygu polisïau economaidd cryf ar gyfer y dyfodol.		Mr Wiliam: I strongly believe that the Government needs to look carefully at the whole range of questions surrounding the media in Wales and the industry more generally. Otherwise, it will miss out on the opportunity to be part of that discussion and part of the opportunity to develop Wales-specific policies. That is vitally important, not only from a heritage perspective, but also from the perspective of developing strong economic policies for the future.
[5] Yn benodol, yr ydym o’r farn y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ystyried comisiynu adolygiad llawn o anghenion Cymru yn y maes hwn, gan edrych ar gynulleidfaoedd, natur ein democratiaeth, ein diwylliant a’r economi yn nhermau darlledu a gwasanaethau ar-lein. Yr ydym hefyd yn credu bod angen edrych yn ofalus ar y sefyllfa o safbwynt ITV yng Nghymru, a bod cyfle i weld trwydded newydd sianel 3 yn cael ei sefydlu ar gyfer Cymru. Nid ydym eisiau gweld unrhyw leihad pellach ar allu’r BBC i wasanaethu cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru. Yr ydym eisiau gweld S4C a’r BBC yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd mewn partneriaethau posibl—er enghraifft, ym maes teledu lleol yn y dyfodol. Yr ydym eisiau edrych eto ar y rheolau hynny sydd yn ymwneud â pherchnogaeth ar draws sectorau darlledu, papurau newyddion ac yn y blaen.		Specifically, we believe that the Welsh Government should consider commissioning a full review of Wales’s needs in this area, looking at the nature of our democracy, the audiences, the economy and our culture in terms of broadcasting and online provision. We also believe that we need to look carefully at the situation involving ITV in Wales, and that there is an opportunity to see a new channel 3 licence established for Wales. We do not want to see any further reduction in the BBC’s ability to serve Welsh audiences. We want to see S4C and the BBC working together in possible partnerships—for example, in local television in the future. We want to look again at the rules and regulations on cross-sectorial ownership in broadcasting, newspapers and so on.
[6] Peter Black: You refer to a lack of capacity, both within the civil service and the National Assembly, to keep pace with technological and policy changes in the Welsh media. How can that lack of capacity be addressed, particularly given the work programme that you set out there?
[7] Mr Wiliam: Yr ydym o’r farn bod angen cryfhau’r adnoddau sydd gan y gweision sifil. Yr ydym eisiau gweld gwell cydweithio rhwng adrannau allweddol o’r Llywodraeth, gan gynnwys rhwng yr adran treftadaeth a’r adrannau busnes, er enghraifft. Yr ydym eisiau gweld mwy o allu i edrych ar y meysydd hyn yn annibynnol a’u hasesu, gyda mwy o waith monitro gan y Llywodraeth a’i swyddogion. Yn ogystal, efallai y byddai modd i’r Cynulliad sefydlu rhyw fath o bwyllgor parhaol i ystyried materion y cyfryngau.		Mr Wiliam: We believe that the civil service resources need to be strengthened. We want to see better collaboration between the key departments of Government, for example between the heritage and business departments. We want to see a greater capacity to look at these areas independently and to assess them, with more monitoring work being carried out by the Government and its officials. In addition, the Assembly could, perhaps, establish some sort of a permanent committee to look at media issues.
[8] Mr Eirug: The former Broadcasting Committee report highlighted the lack of collaboration and joined-up thinking across two, if not more, of the Government’s departments, including economy and heritage. As far as we can see, that essential issue has not really been addressed. Broadcasting is still the responsibility of heritage, without the responsibility of economic development.
[9] Peter Black: I am sure that we will be able to take that up with the Minister when she comes before us. You talk about the need for more independent monitoring of the media in Wales. How would that take place, and what would it achieve?
[10] Mr Wiliam: It is interesting in this context to look at the work carried out by Ofcom, as the regulator, over the last 10 years, and to look, for example, at its communication markets reports. These are high-level documents that look at the development of the digital economy in Wales and the media, for example digital television, digital radio, connectivity in terms of fixed and mobile broadband, voice services, and so on. There is a wealth here of detailed data about the development of the markets in Wales. However, the regulator is unable to provide any kind of qualitative narrative on the development of media in Wales in the same way. There is a substantial vacuum here that needs to be filled, in terms of providing insight and commentary on the development of the media.
[11] Peter Black: Who would fill that vacuum?
[12] Mr Wiliam: We think that there is a role for the Welsh Government.
[13] Peter Black: One issue that we come up against all the time is that, whenever you raise this with Ministers, it is not a devolved issue. They are happy to pass it on to UK Government Ministers. You talk about establishing a working group to look at devolution of some aspects of media policy, which some members of this group would support, but neither the Welsh Government nor the UK Government are committed to that. It seems that we are hitting a brick wall all of the time.
[14] Mr Wiliam: The point is that we can no longer afford to stand back. We have substantial amounts to gain, in cultural and economic development terms, in getting involved now. If you think about the state of creative industries in Wales and the wider state of the economy, you will know that there are potential huge possibilities and advantages of engaging with this area now.
[15] Mr Eirug: The issue there is that unless there is a serious effort to create some locus for the Assembly and the Welsh Government on media issues, Wales will not be part of the debate and will not be listened to. The S4C/BBC deal is a classic example of the way that that has happened, to Wales’s cost. Although the Welsh Government has not made a play for powers in this area, because of the belief that it is all or nothing with regard to devolving powers, it is much more complicated and sophisticated a landscape than that, which is why there needs to be much more detailed work in relation to what might be appropriate to consider—partly devolving, if not fully devolving.
[16] We make the point in the document that we accept that broadcasting as a whole is an UK responsibility, but, within that, there are certain aspects of broadcasting that are devolved, whether they are the Gaelic Media Service in Scotland, the Northern Ireland production fund or, in fact, community radio in Wales. So, there are all sorts of issues that make it necessary for a detailed consideration of the complicated and sophisticated picture with regard to the media landscape.
[17] Kenneth Skates: Before we move on from that, other witnesses have suggested establishing a Wales media commission. Could that carry out the role of independent monitoring?
[18] Mr Eirug: Yes, it could. That was also suggested by the Broadcasting Committee in 2009 in its report on broadcasting. So, that is one mechanism, but that could be part of the work of the working group, whatever it might be, with regard to considering the future of the media landscape.
[19] Mr Wiliam: Byddai creu comisiwn o’r fath yn gyfle unigryw a difyr iawn ar gyfer Cymru. Byddai’n gyfle hefyd i ystyried modelau ariannu posibl yn y dyfodol, efallai drwy gronfeydd cystadleuol. Byddai comisiwn o’r fath mewn sefyllfa gref i allu gweinyddu’r math hwn o beth hefyd.		Mr Wiliam: Creating such a commission would be a unique and interesting opportunity for Wales. It would also be an opportunity to consider possible funding models for the future, perhaps through competitive funds. Such a commission would be in a strong position to administer this sort of thing, too.
[20] Bethan Jenkins: Yn fras ar hynny, a fyddai’r comisiwn, yn eich barn chi, yn gwneud yr un peth â’r gweithgor yn y maes hwn, ynteu a fyddai’n gwneud rhywbeth hollol wahanol, ar draws y ddeddfwriaeth a’r Llywodraeth yng Nghymru? Yn ail, ynghylch datganoli, yr ydym wedi derbyn llawer o dystiolaeth gan y rheini sy’n arwain y BBC ac ITV yng Nghymru, er enghraifft, ond nid ydym wedi clywed gan y rheini sydd, efallai, yn gwneud y penderfyniadau o ran toriadau ac yn y blaen yn Llundain. A fyddai persbectif gwahanol yn cael ei gyflwyno pe bai’r pwerau yng Nghymru, ac y byddai rheolwyr Cymru wedyn yn gallu gwneud y penderfyniadau mewn ffordd wahanol?		Bethan Jenkins: In general on that, would the commission, in your opinion, fulfil the same function as the working group in this area, or would it do something completely different, across the legislation and Government in Wales? Secondly, on devolution, we have heard a great deal of evidence from those who lead the BBC and ITV in Wales, for example, but we have not heard from those who are, perhaps, making the decisions in relation to the cuts and so on in London. Would a different perspective be given if the powers were in Wales, and that managers in Wales were then able to make the decisions in a different way?
[21] Mr Eirug: Canlyniad posibl y gwaith manwl iawn o weld beth yw goblygiadau datganoli, naill ai’n llawn neu’n rhannol, fyddai ystyried sefydlu comisiwn. Hoffwn bwysleisio heddiw faint o frys sydd o ran yr angen i ystyried polisi yn y maes hwn. Gwn eich bod wedi clywed llawer am bapurau newydd, ond, yn gysylltiedig ag ITV, er enghraifft, yn sicr o fewn y chwech i naw mis nesaf, bydd penderfyniad yn cael ei wneud ynghylch a fydd cytundeb masnachfraint ITV ar gyfer Cymru yn cael ei hysbysebu ar wahân neu fel rhan o gytundeb ar gyfer Lloegr a Chymru. Mae goblygiadau dwfn i hynny i ddyfodol darlledu cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Mae penderfyniadau mawr iawn i’w cymryd yng nghyswllt penderfyniadau diweddaraf y BBC ynglŷn â goblygiadau hynny i’r dyfodol.		Mr Eirug: The possible outcome of the very detailed work of seeing the implications of either full or partial devolution would be to consider establishing a commission. I want to emphasise today the urgent need to consider policy in this area. I know that you have heard a great deal about newspapers, but, in relation to ITV, for example, certainly in the next six to nine months, a decision will be made as to whether the franchise agreement for ITV in Wales will be advertised separately or as part of an England and Wales agreement. That has deep-rooted implications for the future of public broadcasting in Wales. There are major decisions to be taken with regard to the BBC’s most recent decisions and the implications that that will have for the future.
[22] Un o’r pwyntiau yr hoffwn ei godi, a fyddai’n sicr yn rhan o waith y math hwn o weithgor, yw dyfodol BBC 2 yng Nghymru, oherwydd nid oes unrhyw argymhelliad i ddatblygu BBC HD ar gyfer BBC 2. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o raglenni BBC Cymru, ar wahân i’r newyddion, yn cael eu darlledu ar BBC 2, felly, os yw’n diflannu, y perygl yw na fydd rhaglenni y tu hwnt i raglenni newyddion. Os ydych yn meddwl ei bod yn broblem yn awr i ddarlledu gemau rygbi ar BBC 2 ar nos Wener neu nos Sadwrn, ni fydd gofod o gwbl ar deledu ar gyfer darlledu’r math hwn o wasanaeth. Dim ond dau gwestiwn yw’r rhain ond mae nifer o gwestiynau sylfaenol sydd eisiau eu hystyried ar frys yn y maes hwn.		One of the points that I would like to raise, and which would certainly form part of the work of this kind of working group, is the future of BBC 2 in Wales, because there is no recommendation to develop BBC HD for BBC 2. Most BBC Wales programmes, apart from the news, are broadcast on BBC 2, so, if it disappears, the risk is that there will be no programmes beyond news programming. If you think that it is a problem now to broadcast rugby matches on BBC 2 on a Friday or Saturday night, there will be no opportunities at all on television for broadcasting that kind of service. Those are only two questions, but there are a number of fundamental questions that need to be considered urgently in this area.
12.45 p.m.
[23] Mr Wiliam: Efallai y bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn gwneud penderfyniad ar sianel 3 ITV o fewn y chwe mis nesaf, a fyddai’n cael effaith anferth ar blwraliaeth yng Nghymru a darpariaeth newyddion ac yn y blaen, sy’n bwysig i ni.		Mr Wiliam: Perhaps the Secretary of State will make a decision on channel 3 ITV in the next six months, which would have a substantial effect on plurality in Wales and news provision and so on, which is important to us.
[24] Kenneth Skates: Janet, could you take on the communucations Bill aspect?
[25] Janet Finch-Saunders: You make several recommendations in your paper about issues relevant to the possible contents of the communications Bill. How do you see the communications Bill helping with some of your concerns?
[26] Mr Eirug: The answer is that we do not know whether it will help. One of the reasons why we have to do a lot of detailed thinking about the Bill is that there is potential as well as dangers. I mentioned the channel 3 licences, and there is also the issue of the statutory foundation of S4C, ensuring that it is able to provide online services as well as television output. Another aspect to consider is firming up television production quotas, because apart from the BBC, ITV and Channel 4, in particular, have been able to hide behind a quota system that is ‘out of London’ as opposed to ‘out of London and into Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland’. We would be asking for about 10 per cent of a quota. At the moment, I think that it is 3 per cent across the whole of the UK outside London, which is absurd.
[27] There are big issues to do with radio licensing and localism that Hywel, as a former Ofcom adviser, is better positioned to comment upon, and there are also matters in relation to community radio.
[28] The implications of what you have heard about the future of newspapers are of interest. One of the issues is that cross-media regulation has already been lifted on the limitations on ownership in a local media market. I think that that is interesting, because it raises all sorts of possibilities about how newspapers could collaborate with others and think creatively about how to develop markets beyond paper editions. That is an interesting issue and opportunity.
[29] However, there are also issues to do with the regulation framework as it affects Wales. We have a weak market at the moment—you will hear from newspapers how weak it is. There may be things with the communications Bill, for example, that might strengthen people’s ability to offer local services across media. Fundamental to the whole issue is the Welsh requirements. Unless we, this group and the Welsh Government strongly feed in a view about what those requirements might be, we are going to be by-passed.
[30] Janet-Finch Saunders: That was going to be my second question. How do you think that the Welsh Government response, or the Welsh response in general, is dealing with the introduction of the communications Bill?
[31] Mr Eirug: I will let Hywel talk about radio in a minute. One of the fundamental things that we highlighted is the lack of capacity within Government to deal with this. We highlighted the fact that Ofcom had 140 consultations in the last year to 18 months, and I think that the Welsh Government responded to no more than four or five of them. They may well have been the most important consultations, but that reflects the lack of capacity and, not so much ability, but the number of people who are dedicated to this particular work. Partly because it is not clearly devolved, people do not think, perhaps, that it is their responsibility. However, it has a huge impact on what we do. I go back to the fundamental issue that one of the problems is the divorce between responsibility for broadcasting and economic development. It is fundamentally naive and misguided to sustain that separation.
[32] Mr Wiliam: It is worth remembering, in the context of the communications Bill, that it will have enormous scope stretching across telecommunications and the use of the radio spectrum in addition to broadcast matters. Again, if you look at it from the point of view of economic development, these are very important areas for the future of the Welsh economy. We have the prospect next year of the start of a very major spectrum auction by Ofcom, releasing spectrum for the use for mobile broadband services, for example. It is likely that we are talking about very significant sums of money and that the licences will be for the whole of the UK. So, there is an interest from the Welsh economy’s point of view to ensure that, if they roll out new advanced services, such as 4G or long-term evolution mobile broadband, most people in Wales can have access to these services rather than just people living in the Thames valley or central London. It is worth keeping a very close eye on those sorts of developments.
[33] However, it is also worth taking a fairly forensic, detailed approach to scrutinising the existing Communications Act 2003, looking at the Green Paper and the White Paper to see the evolution of the ideas and then assessing what impact those will have on Wales and what the implications are for us. I will pick one very small example, picking up on what Aled is saying, because it is not always obvious what the impact might be—it needs to be thought through. For example, the Digital Economy Act 2010 looks at removing the requirement for broadcasters to produce statements of programme policy and reviewing these statements. This is a qualitative tier 3 sort of provision that public service broadcasters are required to make in the UK. Interestingly, I do not think that anyone really thought of this because it was a footnote at the bottom of someone’s memo somewhere, but I rang the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to query with someone this point in relation to S4C, and, after a bit of thought, they said that they thought that the SPPs would carry on for S4C. It is interesting that there is a lot of potential to have an input to policy thinking in areas that are not necessarily priorities. I think that that may genuinely help the process.
[34] Kenneth Skates: Briefly, on the issue of local television, you say that the BBC, S4C and independent producers should look at a not-for-profit model for local television. Could you elaborate on that and what it would mean? Are you suggesting that the BBC and S4C should carry content from local television?
[35] Mr Eirug: We will not know until the end of this year whether there are sites in Wales that have been chosen as what are called pioneer sites. The BBC is required to provide support for the local television initiative. That may be carriage, but it may also include content. To be fair to the BBC, it has already provided free content certainly to one community radio station in Wales, if not two. So, there is that potential. S4C has already indicated an interest. It is difficult to imagine much Welsh-language provision on the local television service without S4C’s help, support and involvement. On whether local television is sustainable financially, many people in the industry do not think so. However, there may be other models, aside from the private model, that are worth considering and developing. For example, a local TV operation could be set up as a social enterprise that included an element of private funding and an element of public funding. However, it is very early days, and I do not think that we can say anything definitive on this. It is in development as we speak. As we said, there is a certain amount of scepticism about it, and, arguably, it is not exactly what the Welsh media scene needs in view of the other problems it has across the sector, but it is nevertheless an interesting development. We should not dismiss it out of hand.
[36] Mr Wiliam: May I add to that? It would be great to encourage a slightly more proactive approach and take an outward-looking view to ask what the opportunities are. Think about the history of SDN, for example, which is a multiplex on Freeview: it started with input and influence from Wales. Why could companies or bodies in Wales not bid to run the local television multiplex, if that comes about? We do not have to be passive here. We can take the initiative, source finance and try these things out. It is quite interesting to consider how the model that is proposed might separate out the commercial burdens in various ways. In other words, the local operators might not have to carry the heavy costs of transmission, for example, which would be handled more by the multiplex operator. That needs to be looked at carefully, too, to ensure a balance, so that you have sustainability, but the interests of the local operators are maintained as well.
[37] Bethan Jenkins: Daeth y bobl sy’n rhedeg FYI-Neath, y gwasanaeth ar-lein, i’r grŵp trawsbleidiol ar y cyfryngau a darlledu a lansiwyd gennym yr wythnos hon, a dywedasant efallai y dylem gael y datblygiadau hyn ar-lein yn hytrach na’i fod yn gorfod bod ar y teledu, a bod cwmnïau felly yn gallu datblygu yn y ffordd honno. A ydych yn meddwl byddai pwyslais mwy lleol, gan gychwyn o’r gwaelod a gweithio lan yn lle gweithio o’r top i lawr, yn gweithio’n well i Gymru?		Bethan Jenkins: The people who run FYI-Neath, the online service, came to the cross-party group on media and broadcasting that we launched this week, and said that perhaps we should have these developments online instead of things having to be on television, and that such companies can develop in that way. Do you think that a more local emphasis, starting from the bottom and working up instead of from the top working down, would work better for Wales?
[38] Mr Wiliam: Mae cyfleodd mawr yn hyn o beth. Credaf mai ar fand eang y bydd teledu lleol yn bodoli yn y diwedd, ac mae llawer o synnwyr yn hynny o beth. Mae cyfleoedd gyda’r mathau o setiau teledu sy’n cael eu gwerthu yn awr—y setiau smart neu glyfar—y gallwch gysylltu drwy ether-rwyd neu Wi-Fi. Bydd y set yn datblygu i fod yn ganolbwynt ar gyfer cyfryngau ar-lein a darlledu. Mae hynny’n codi cwestiwn, yn fy marn i, o ran sut y byddech yn rheoleiddio cynnwys, sy’n ddiddorol ynddo’i hun. Fodd bynnag, os ydych yn meddwl am y cyfleoedd i fusnes, pam na fyddai cwmnïau yng Nghymru’n datblygu apps ar gyfer teledyddion smart a’u gwerthu i fusnesau megis Sony, Toshiba, LG, ac yn y blaen?		Mr Wiliam: There are huge opportunities here. I think that, in the end, local television will exist on broadband, and that makes a lot of sense. There are opportunities with the kinds of television sets now being sold—the smart sets—that you can connect through ethernet or Wi-Fi. The set will develop to become the focus for online and broadcast media. That raises the question, in my opinion, of how you would regulate content, which is interesting in itself. However, if you are thinking about the opportunities for business, why would companies in Wales not be developing apps for these smart televisions and selling them to businesses such as Sony, Toshiba, LG, and so on?
[39] Eto, credaf fod eisiau mwy o waith ar hyn o beth, i ddwyn yr awenau yn lle eistedd yn ôl a disgwyl iddo ddigwydd. Mae cyfleoedd busnes cryf yma, ac mae’n werth edrych arno yng nghyd-destun datblygu’r economi yn ogystal â chyd-destun treftadaeth.		Again, I think that more work is needed on this, to take a lead instead of sitting back and waiting for it to happen. There are strong business opportunities here, and it is worth looking at it in the context of economic development as well as in the heritage context.
[40] Bethan Jenkins: Mae’r cwestiynau nesaf yn dilyn o hynny. Wedi darllen y dystiolaeth, er fy mod yn cydnabod eich diddordeb yn agweddau ar-lein ac ati, gwelaf mai dim ond dwy dudalen o’r 51 sydd ar agweddau newydd aml-blatfform, megis smartphones, apps ac yn y blaen. A allwch ehangu ar yr hyn yr ydych yn credu y gall y cyfryngau ei wneud i weithio ar draws platfformau yn y byd sydd ohoni, ac oes gennych syniadau am gysyniadau busnes newydd i Gymru? Yr ydych wedi crybwyll model cydweithredol ar gyfer teledu lleol. A oes pethau eraill a all ddigwydd, er enghraifft gyda phapurau newydd ac ati?		Bethan Jenkins: The next questions follow on from that. Having read the evidence, while I acknowledge your interest in online aspects and so on, T see that only two out of the 51 pages are on the new multi-platform aspects, such as smartphones, apps and so on. Can you expand on what you believe that the media can do to work across platforms in the current climate, and do you have any ideas about new business concepts for Wales? You have mentioned a co-operative model for local television. Are there are other things that could happen, for example with regard to newspapers and so on?
[41] Mr Wiliam: Mae cyfleoedd amlwg i arloesi. Mae’n ddiddorol edrych ar sefyllfa S4C, er enghraifft, gan ei bod mewn sefyllfa gryf o bosibl i ymateb yn gyflym a gweithio mewn ffordd llawer mwy hyblyg nad yw cyrff llawer yn fwy. Mae lle gan S4C i ennill o’r newidiadau sy’n digwydd yn y ffordd y mae pobl yn derbyn eu cynnwys ac yn gwylio teledu. Mae pobl o dan 25 y dyddiau hyn yn fwy tebygol o fod ar-lein neu, efallai yn gwneud y cyfan yr un pryd, sef stacio: hynny yw, defnyddio Facebook, Trydar a gwylio teledu i gyd yr un pryd. Mae hynny’n ddiddorol, ac mae’n rhoi cyfle creadigol i gynhyrchwyr feddwl am ddarparu rhaglenni a fyddai’n croesi ar draws. Hynny yw, byddai elfen ar-lein ac elfen o ddarlledu mewn ffordd greadigol newydd ni chredaf fod pobl wedi meddwl amdani eto. Mae arwyddion bod y cynhyrchwyr annibynnol yn dechrau meddwl fel hyn. Gallwch weld o strategaethau rhai cwmnïau sut maent yn darparu syniadau fel hyn. Mae hynny’n ddifyr iawn. Gallai darlledwr fel S4C symud yn eithaf cyflym ar hynny, byddwn yn tybio.		Mr Wiliam: There are clear opportunities for innovation. It is interesting to look at the situation of S4C, for example, because it is possibly in a strong position to respond quickly and to work much more flexibly than much larger organisations. There is scope for S4C to gain from the changes taking place in how people receive content and watch television. People under the age of 25 these days are more likely to be online or, perhaps, to do everything at once, namely stacking: that is, using Facebook, Twitter and watching television all at the same time. That is interesting, and it gives producers a creative opportunity to think about providing programmes that would cross over. That is, there would be an online element and a broadcast element in a new creative way that I do not think that people have thought about as yet. There are signs that independent producers are starting to think in this way. You can see from the strategies of some companies how they are providing such ideas. That is very interesting. A broadcaster such as S4C could move quite quickly on that, I would have thought.
[42] Bethan Jenkins: Cawsom dystiolaeth gan gwmnïau annibynnol sy’n dweud bod darlledwyr megis wncwl yn dawnsio disco—hynny yw, nid ydynt yn deall y sefyllfa. [Chwerthin.] Dywedwch chi fod S4C mewn lle addawol a chadarnhaol i wneud hyn, ond, eto i gyd, o’r dystiolaeth gawsom gan S4C, efallai nad yw ar flaen y gad yn hyn o beth ar hyn o bryd.		Bethan Jenkins: We have received evidence from independent companies that states that broadcasters are like an uncle disco dancing—that is, they do not understand the situation. [Laughter.] You say that S4C is in a promising and positive position to do this, but, then again, based on the evidence that we have received from S4C, it is perhaps not in the vanguard in doing this at the moment.
[43] Mr Eurig: Yr ateb i hynny yw dim ond yn ystod y mis diwethaf cyhoeddoedd S4C ryw fath o strategaeth ddigidol. Chwarae teg, mae’n clustnodi £1 miliwn i ddatblygu’r strategaeth honno, ond, a bod yn hollol onest, credaf fod S4C ryw 10 mlynedd ar ôl y BBC yn hyn o beth, ond mae potensial mawr iawn.		Mr Eurig: The response to that is that only during the last month did S4C announce any sort of digital strategy. To be fair, it has earmarked £1 million to develop that strategy, but, to be perfectly honest, I think that S4C is about 10 years behind the BBC in this regard, but there is great potential.
1.00 p.m.
[44] Mae gwaith gyda nifer o gwmnïau, gan gynnwys Griffilms, credaf, a chwmni Wil Stephens, yn datblygu apps ac ati, ond credaf fod lefel y diwydiant drwy Brifysgol Abertay yn yr Alban yn llawer fwy soffistigedig o ran datblygu technoleg gemau ac yn y blaen nag ydym ni ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn siŵr fod y panel diwydiannau creadigol mae Ron Jones yn ei gadeirio yn edrych ar y math hwn o fater, ac efallai ei bod ychydig yn rhy gynnar i ddweud beth yw ffrwyth y gwaith. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amlwg fod potensial anferthol achos mae arbenigedd o ran technoleg gemau yn Abertawe a Chasnewydd.		There is work with several companies, including Griffilms, I think, and Wil Stephens’s company, developing apps and so on, but I think that the level of the industry through Abertay University in Scotland is much more sophisticated in terms of developing games technology and so on than we currently are. I am sure that the creative industries panel that Ron Jones chairs is looking at this type of issue, and it may be a little too early to say what the outcome will be. However, there is obviously huge potential because there is expertise in games technology in Swansea and Newport.
[45] Mr Wiliam: Mae potensial hefyd i gydweithio â chyrff fel y fforwm electronig yng Nghymru, er enghraifft, a chydweithio mwy gyda phobl sydd yn gweithio’n barod yn y diwydiannau electroneg hyn, a bod yn greadigol. Mae eisiau cofio hefyd fod S4C wedi lansio app ar y tywydd, sydd yn llawer mwy arloesol nag apps eraill. Mae’n rhoi manylion y tywydd i chi o fewn 2 km o lle yr ydych wedi eich lleoli.		Mr Wiliam: There is also potential to work with bodies such as the electronics forum in Wales, for example, and work more with people who already work in these electronics industries, and to be creative. We also need to remember that S4C has launched a weather app that is much more innovative than other apps. It gives details of the weather within 2 km of where you are located.
[46] Bethan Jenkins: Felly, yn fwy na chael busnesau gyda modelau newydd, a fyddech yn annog busnesau sydd yn bodoli’n barod i gael mwy o fewnbwn i syniadau’r Llywodraeth a’r panel diwydiannau creadigol, er enghraifft?		Bethan Jenkins: So, more than having businesses with new models, would you encourage businesses that are already out there to have more input into the Government’s and the creative industries panel’s ideas, for example?
[47] Mr Wiliam: Bydd y ddau’n berthnasol. Mae angen meddwl yn ffresh ac arloesi, ond hefyd gweithio gyda’r hyn sy’n bodoli.		Mr Wiliam: Both are relevant. We need fresh thinking and innovation, but also to work with what is already out there.
[48] Kenneth Skates: Thank you. We will move on now to the Hargreaves review and the steps that you think could and should be taken to strengthen the media. First, what is your view of the Welsh Government’s response so far to the Hargreaves review?
[49] Mr Eirug: We touched upon this earlier, as Ian Hargreaves said something to this effect in his evidence to you. While we welcome the establishment of the creative industries panel and the Digital Wales board, we would like to see much closer working between the Welsh Government’s business and heritage departments, so that we can get a much better return on the still substantial public service broadcasting investment in Wales, as I think that Ian Hargreaves suggested. That is also partly to do with the organisation within Government of how broadcasting is dealt with. I think that I made the point quite clearly earlier that broadcasting seems to be separated from the creative industries side, whereas you cannot really separate the two as they inform each other. That is a pretty fundamental issue, which was identified a few years ago and which has not really been addressed properly.
[50] Kenneth Skates: Are there any further comments?
[51] Mr Wiliam: It is early days, of course—bodies such as the creative industries panel have only just started their work, so we need to see how the new policy beds in and the research work that they will be undertaking.
[52] Kenneth Skates: We will take evidence shortly from people representing the news print media. Can you give us some ideas on how you think that we could strengthen print media in Wales, which, as you know, is an issue that has had quite a bit of coverage lately?
[53] Mr Eirug: The answer to that is ‘with great difficulty’. It is a really difficult issue. The Assembly committee’s inquiry a few years ago into the newspaper industry highlighted some of the main points that we have picked up on again. It is really difficult to see how you can substantially influence the future of commercial newspapers. I do not think that we are in the business of having Government giving substantial amounts of money to the newspaper industry, although we might think that that is a good thing in terms of the quality of debate and its importance for democracy. It is a real issue, and I would take you back to the issues surrounding the proposed Welsh-language newspaper, Y Byd. The Government decided not to pay for a fully funded newspaper simply because of the cost implications. It instead gave money to Golwg360. It is a difficult issue. One thing that the committee has picked up on, and we have tried to get a figure on, is the current spend by local authorities, as well as the Welsh Government, on free sheets, for example. The Assembly’s Research Service did some work on this a few years ago, and the figure was about £5 million or £6 million, from my recollection, but it would be interesting for the committee to ask local authorities what exactly they are paying. It would probably be quite a lot in Cardiff and a bit less in, say, Powys. That is quite a substantial figure. There are elements like public notices, for example, that have to appear in newspapers; that is quite crucial. However, income from job advertisements has drastically reduced because they have been put on the web.
[54] Kenneth Skates: To interrupt briefly, just to make it clear, you are not saying that the money that is currently spent on free papers should just be withdrawn, but that it should be allocated to better notifications and advert features in the established newspapers.
[55] Mr Eirug: Absolutely, yes. I do not think that we would suggest otherwise at all. It seems sensible, if we are worried about the state of the local newspaper industry—and you will see from the circulation figures that we provide that even the best-performing local paper, the South Wales Evening Post, sells no more than about 45,000.
[56] Peter Black: Why would a local authority subsidise a local newspaper when it can place the adverts cheaper in its own publication?
[57] Mr Eirug: Possibly the local authority might be glad to see the important contribution that a local newspaper makes to the vibrancy of local democracy.
[58] Peter Black: Possibly, but there would also be competing demands on its own resources, would there not? In Swansea, for example, the actual cost of the newspaper is covered by the advertising that the authority does not put in the Evening Post anymore.
[59] Mr Eirug: That may well be the case, and it is a political decision. However, we are suggesting that that may be one thing that might be worth looking at. I remind you that Eric Pickles in England has banned local authorities from creating their own newspapers.
[60] Peter Black: Thank God that Eric Pickles is not responsible for Wales, then.
[61] Kenneth Skates: Perhaps that will be different after next May’s elections. You were saying, before I interrupted you, that there may be other areas to look at.
[62] Mr Wiliam: Our paper deals with cross-media ownership as well. It is interesting in this context because it is often the case that people demand more control and regulation or whatever, but we are taking a deregulatory approach in saying that there is scope for controlled deregulation in this area to liberalise the marketplace and create new synergies. There might then be opportunities for media groups and newspapers to work with local radio, for example, in new and interesting ways. We would also advocate a deregulatory approach towards community radio in the long term, especially if the prospects for the migration of radio to DAB come about. It might well be that community radio could then be liberalised across the FM spectrum, which would be quite an interesting prospect. We would therefore also support the work that the Welsh Government has carried out through its community radio fund, which we saw as a very important contribution. We would hope that that fund would continue in future years.
[63] Kenneth Skates: Finally, can you expand on the steps that you think should be taken to improve the Welsh Government’s influence and responsibility over media policy?
[64] Mr Wiliam: To engage with these issues, you will need expert staffing resources, and additional resources, we think, in order to scrutinise the process at each stage, and be quite focused about it, with a view to looking at the issues for Wales, and the potential benefits—to maximise the value of the process, really.
[65] Mr Eirug: We have not mentioned that part of the reason why there are so few pages about online provision and more about what might be termed conventional broadcasting is that, certainly for the medium term, that is still the way that people get most of their information. We have not really touched on two of the most important elements that might be considered either by continuing with the work of this task and finish group, or within Government. The first is that the BBC has reduced its programming by about 16 per cent in the last four years, unmonitored—no-one at any stage has said, ‘Hang on, we are cutting back by 16 per cent’. That has to be checked and monitored by someone outside of the BBC.
[66] Secondly, we have all had a salutary experience in terms of what has happened with the relationship between the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, S4C and the BBC. One really crucial point is that, while most of the S4C funding is tied to the licence fee, there is no guarantee after 2015 that the £7 million or so that comes from DCMS will continue to be paid. That is an important element of any consideration of the responsibilities of the Assembly and the Government and their response to that issue.
[67] Mr Wiliam: Just to support that point, it would be great if the Welsh Government could pursue and develop a formal framework for accountability, in as much as that would be possible, whereby the broadcasters, regulators and others would report formally to the National Assembly about progress on an annual basis. That formal framework is not in place, but given both the cultural and the economic development imperatives, we think that it would be fully justified.
[68] Kenneth Skates: Are there any other questions? We have a few moments left for one last question from me, regarding something that you touched on in your evidence—namely, English-language content, particularly within the BBC, and its sharp decline. Is there a risk that English-language content commissioned centrally from London, but produced in Wales, could wrongly be seen as somehow substituting for the loss of English-language Welsh television made for Wales? Is there a risk that Wales will stop talking to itself?
[69] Mr Eirug: There is a very real danger of that. It is fantastic how the BBC has developed production in Wales for the network. The danger with that is that we lose sight of English-language television provision for viewers in Wales about Wales. I made the point earlier about the danger of BBC 2 going high definition and not continuing with a service for Wales—I think that that is a very real danger. The nature and the steepness of the decline in the numbers of English-language programmes—we have lost 100 hours a year, I think, over the last four or five years—underlines the fact that we need to be much more aware of the impact of the cuts on BBC Wales. As we know, there are to be cuts of another 16 per cent to the BBC Wales budget. The problem with that is that, while BBC Wales has to be quite constant in its provision of programming for S4C, because it has a statutory responsibility to provide 10 hours, any cut has therefore to come from the English-language side, and that would endanger the lower level of output that we have at the moment even more.
[70] Mr Wiliam: It is worth noting as well that the arguments about plurality remain, so ITV Wales’s contribution is also vital. It is encouraging to see ITV investing in additional journalists and strengthening the newsroom in terms of resources and capability, as well as its continual investment and development of both news and non-news programming. However, there is a need to keep a close eye on this.
[71] Bethan Jenkins: Briefly, the cross-party group heard that the independently funded news consortia model should be reinvestigated as part of the ITV licence renewal process. Is that something that you would support, as opposed to standing still?
[72] Mr Eirug: I do not think that the Government would be very happy with that, because it quickly stopped the process. However, it raises an interesting question about the future of ITV and the franchise in Wales. Why should the Wales franchise not be advertised separately? We already have separate licences for Northern Ireland and Scotland. Let us see if there are bidders out there who would be interested in the contract. It would be too easy to accept what ITV would like to happen, which is a commitment to the licence for ITV Wales for another 10 years.
[73] Mr Wiliam: At the moment, the licence covers Wales and the west of England.
[74] Mr Eirug: The other thing is that, at the recent Institute of Welsh Affairs conference on broadcasting, the head of news for ITV said that it was interested in continuing to do news and current affairs, but not necessarily anything else. The danger would be that, if it won the licence again, it would attempt to secure the lowest possible threshold of service.
[75] Kenneth Skates: Excellent. Thank you very much for coming today. A copy of the transcript will be with you shortly for you to check.
1.15 p.m.
Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Media Wales Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Media Wales
[76] Kenneth Skates: We now welcome Alan Edmunds. Thank you very much for coming today. There is no need to touch the microphone system. We are in public session, so that will operate automatically. Channel 1 is for translation from Welsh to English, and channel 0 is for amplification. I thank you for your letter. It has not been published yet, but it will be published and will, therefore, be online shortly. There are several areas that we would like to go through in terms of the current state of the media in Wales, new business models and opportunities for the future. We will begin with the current state of the media in Wales and how new technologies impact on this. Bethan has some questions on that.
[77] Bethan Jenkins: Thank you for coming to give evidence. Can you clarify, for the record, at this point in time, what your role is in the overall scheme of things at Trinity Mirror as the managing director? Do you have responsibility for the strategic direction of the business, any sales that are made and the profits of the company? This question is to help us understand what your role is in the company.
[78] Mr Edmunds: Do you mean my responsibility for Media Wales?
[79] Bethan Jenkins: Yes.
[80] Mr Edmunds: Of course. I am managing director of Media Wales.
[81] Bethan Jenkins: So, would that cover all of the elements I have mentioned?
[82] Mr Edmunds: Yes.
[83] Bethan Jenkins: I just wanted to clarify that. In answer to question 4 of the letter we sent to you, you state that it is part of your normal business practice to have detailed plans and strategies to promote the sales of your newspapers. Given that sales of Media Wales titles have continued to fall for a number of years, would you say that those strategies have failed? Is it your responsibility to address any shortcomings in strategy? If not, who is responsible?
[84] Mr Edmunds: We do not exist in a bubble—the sales picture is reflected across Britain, and across the world, where newspapers have to embrace a completely new market, and at the same time as we have seen declining sales, we have seen growth in the digital audience. We have strategies designed to maximise that growth. We tackle newspaper sales today in the same way as we always have. Everything we do is designed to maximise those sales, and we invest to that effect. We work hard at that, in common with newspapers all over Britain, and everywhere else. One of the key tasks for us is to ensure that our newspapers work alongside our websites, so that they complement one another and give the best possible service to our readers and advertisers. So, our strategies are all about delivering the best possible service we can to those audiences.
[85] Bethan Jenkins: So, are you saying that, regardless of the fact that you may have strategies and business models in place, because of the worldwide trend in the industry, and regardless of the fact that readership is declining, your plans are coping with the situation?
[86] Mr Edmunds: This is a worldwide issue. Circulation is different to readership. You need to look at total audience. So, a journalist writing a story now may, if it is published online, have a bigger audience than he has ever had in his career. So, the big picture is that this is an issue affecting media across the world. There is nothing specifically Welsh about this at all.
[87] Bethan Jenkins: In relation to question 8 in the document you sent to the Chair, I am trying to understand how redundancies in marketing and newspaper sales has allowed for functions to work more efficiently, as you state. More specifically, what are those systems? Please outline the measures for success, because you correlate redundancies with more efficient working. How can you marry those two together?
[88] Mr Edmunds: That is because we work in a different way. All of this is in the context of the most difficult economic conditions that any of us have seen in our lifetime, which means that we have to work in the most efficient way possible. We work as a region—north-west and Wales—so the answer to that question is that we have a new system for marketing and newspaper sales that is regionally based. We have a new system for the allocation of our newspapers, for example, that deals with how we allocate the Western Mail across Wales—how many copies we put in which shops, in other words. We have a very sophisticated system for that, which is far more sophisticated than would have been the case several years ago. It is far more efficient. We work as a regional hub, which allows us to get the strengths of the whole region with fewer staff. It is extremely efficient.
[89] Bethan Jenkins: The problem is that your opinion contrasts with what the NUJ has told us in terms of the fact that more and more journalists at Media Wales have been made redundant. They are being pushed to put copy across different regional newspapers. They are being pushed to do more work than they would have done before. How can you describe it as efficient when journalists are under much more pressure? Does it not equate to the quality being degraded because they are being told to do more things than they can possibly manage in a day?
[90] Mr Edmunds: The first part of my answer related to newspaper sales and marketing, which is what you asked me about. You have now moved on to editorial issues. We were the first regional newspaper centre in Britain to introduce an integrated newsroom. That is something that Wales should actually be quite proud of because we had a lot of visitors from around the country to see what we had done. The reason for that was twofold: one was to ensure that we were working as efficiently as possible; however, mainly, it was to serve the way the market had changed and the way that our audience was now demanding news from us, which was to embrace the internet. We had to ensure that we loved the internet as much as we loved our newspapers and that all the work that journalists were doing each day was creating a vibrant WalesOnline, which is a huge success story for Wales. The fact that we have built from scratch a website with more than one million unique users a month on a national Wales basis is quite an achievement. It is the only website that gets anywhere near the BBC, for example. Without WalesOnline, digitally, Wales would be a much poorer place.
[91] Kenneth Skates: May I come in on the internet issue, the website issue? I understand that the British Broadcasting Corporation then went into online media as well and that it provides the only online service to which people go directly for news. For example, if I want to know what is happening in Clwyd South, I would often Google ‘Clwyd South news’, whereas the BBC is the one news provider for everywhere. Do you think that the BBC could play a greater role by having links to specific regional newspapers within its content? Would that help? At the moment, many people will go to Google and then they will end up at the BBC or they will just go directly to the BBC, in effect bypassing regional papers.
[92] Mr Edmunds: Sure. I have been asked this question many times. Obviously, I would welcome the BBC linking to regional papers, as I am sure all regional papers would. There is no doubt at all, and it is well documented, that the might of the BBC online is a big issue for independent private sector news providers. On co-operation with the BBC, we are often asked about sharing content and we always say that we have an open mind on those things. In terms of the BBC linking to us, clearly we would welcome that. However, we always feature very well on Google on the big stories. Obviously, we are a very highly rated website, so we are also very skilled at search engine optimisation. We work very hard at maximising the traffic to WalesOnline.
[93] Bethan Jenkins: I have two further brief questions. With regard to question 10 on the letter that was sent, you say that financial details are contained within the company’s reporting and management statements, and yet none of them outline how much money from Media Wales, from pre-tax profit, Trinity Mirror has invested back into Wales’s operations. Do you have an idea how much that would be? If not, is there someone else who could answer that question?
[94] Mr Edmunds: Investment is made in so many ways. For example, I can give you a specific figure, such as that we invested £18 million in a new press in Wales in 2003, which brings work into Wales. That was a massive investment. It is in the bay. That was a huge investment that we made in Wales. As I said, we built WalesOnline from scratch to one million unique users a month. That was a massive investment in terms of technology and extra skills that we had to bring in. We continually invest every year in the training of journalist to the highest possible standard, many of whom go on to work for the BBC or move to Fleet Street, for example.
[95] We invest in Wales in so many ways. We partner with the National Assembly in key areas, such as sustainable environment, with Go Green, and health prevention with Health Check Wales. Obviously there is some commercial benefit to us in that as well, but it is certainly an investment in time and expertise. We invest in Wales in so many ways. We have campaigned for rail electrification and greater powers for this institution, for example, and have invested our time and energy into that. On a completely different note, we have just won the right for Richard Burton to have a star on the Hollywood walk of fame. We have raised £10,000 or more for Tenovus through our Welsh wrist bands campaign during the Rugby World Cup. The list goes on about the number of ways that we, as a company, invest in Wales consistently.
[96] We invest in the Cardiff business partnership, of which I am a founding director, to fight for the best possible future for the Welsh capital; we invest money and time in that. We lobbied successfully for electrification there and combined it with a campaign in the paper. We partner in a whole host of awards, such as the Welsh blog awards and the Welsh business awards with the Institute of Welsh Affairs, which was just in here. So, I think that we are at the very centre of Welsh life. We have even helped Glamorgan Cricket Club with its bid for the next Ashes test in 2015. We worked hard with the Ryder Cup Wales team to ensure that there was a legacy from the event. I think that that is a massive investment in Wales, and that just skims the surface of what we do.
[97] Bethan Jenkins: There has been some concern expressed by witnesses about the possibility of the Western Mail becoming a weekly paper. You say in your response that you have no plans, but that is not the same as ruling it out altogether, in my opinion. Would it not be better for you to rule that out categorically in order to close down the debate about the fact that it could become a weekly paper, as opposed to just allowing people to discuss the fact that it could? For example, the Liverpool Daily Post has just been changed into a weekly paper, and there are moves to discuss this for the Evening Post titles across the UK. Would you be willing to say that today?
[98] Mr Edmunds: The Liverpool Daily Post is a completely separate newspaper. You would look at each newspaper on its merit. I can categorically say that we have absolutely no plans and no intentions of turning the Western Mail weekly. If you ask me whether I am going turn it orange, my answer would be the same. We have never discussed turning the Western Mail weekly, and we have absolutely no plans to do so.
[99] Bethan Jenkins: Hypothetically, if the circulation deteriorated from what it is now, as has happened with the newspapers that I mentioned, would you, therefore, not consider it as a weekly newspaper? Would you still maintain that the Western Mail has to be a daily newspaper for Wales?
[100] Mr Edmunds: It is a hypothetical question. I cannot see a scenario where it would make business sense for us to turn it weekly.
[101] Bethan Jenkins: Ok; thank you.
[102] Kenneth Skates: So, it is daily or death, basically, for the Western Mail. You will stick to it being daily or there is no—
[103] Mr Edmunds: I have just answered the question three times.
[104] Kenneth Skates: Peter, could you ask about the communications Bill?
[105] Peter Black: Before I come on to the communications Bill, I am not aware of the South Wales Evening Post going weekly either.
[106] Bethan Jenkins: No, it is not the South Wales Evening Post, but there are discussions about the company.
[107] Peter Black: Of course, the South Wales Evening Post is the daily newspaper with the biggest circulation in Wales. The Western Mail terms itself as the newspaper of Wales. Both have limited geographical distribution: you do not distribute very well in north Wales any more than the South Wales Evening Post distributes well in Cardiff. I am interested in how you are able to term yourself as a newspaper of Wales in the context of the way that circulation figures pan out across Wales—I know that all newspapers have declining circulation.
[108] Mr Edmunds: The Western Mail is the only paper produced in Wales that sells nationally across Wales. We call it the national newspaper of Wales and it fulfils that role, as I am sure that most of you would agree, in terms of the way in which it approaches its remit. When we research the area of our readership, for example, we always get a positive response to that description. People welcome the Western Mail fulfilling that role.
1.30 p.m.
[109] Peter Black: I will move on the communications Bill. Does Media Wales/Trinity Mirror have any views as to what should be included in the communications Bill that is being developed by the UK Government?
[110] Mr Edmunds: One issue that has been raised in relation to the communications Bill is cross-media ownership. What we have said with regard to the rules on that being relaxed, which could open up opportunities for newspapers across Britain, is well-established. So, that would be the key point.
[111] Peter Black: What is the potential with regard to your model for that?
[112] Mr Edmunds: It is hard to say, but it would enable cross-media ownership and, as was mentioned in previous evidence to you, the possibility of newspapers working together across Britain, because, again, this is not just a Welsh issue. There is no doubt that that will be a big help in these tough economic times.
[113] Peter Black: Will changes to competition rules assist newspapers and journalism in Wales and make media business models more sustainable?
[114] Mr Edmunds: It has the potential to do that, yes.
[115] Peter Black: Are you interested in going into local television, for example?
[116] Mr Edmunds: We have looked at local television, but we cannot see that it would work for us. We have been clear on that.
[117] Peter Black: We have had the view from one contributor, Dr Andy Williams, that the relaxation of cross-media ownership rules would lead to further job cuts, less plurality and weaker journalism in Wales. Do you agree with that?
[118] Mr Edmunds: I think the opposite is true. The risk for some smaller newspapers in this economy is that they might struggle to survive, so that would be the biggest risk of not relaxing those rules. We should all embrace change and look for new opportunities. As the world changes and as the media change, relaxing those rules would potentially allow a lot of new and exciting possibilities. So, I disagree with his view.
[119] Kenneth Skates: I want to move on to new business models and looking to the future, particularly in relation to the internet. What have been the biggest challenges for the company with regard to getting the business model right when balancing print and online content, particularly when a lot of content is basically free through one platform, but paid for through another?
[120] Mr Edmunds: This is a huge issue globally. What have we done in Wales? I have described the success of WalesOnline. We are clearly investing to build our digital revenues, which is obviously important. We invest considerably, in time and money, in doing that. So, the issue for us, as we grow traffic, which we are doing very successfully—WalesOnline traffic will increase by 25 per cent year on year—is to grow our revenues. That task is reflected in many parts of Britain, Europe and beyond.
[121] Kenneth Skates: In your evidence, you said that there may be scope for charging for specialist content in some cases. Are you able to give more detail about what that could earn?
[122] Mr Edmunds: We do not have any specific plans at the minute, but, as we face the challenge that I have just described about growing revenues, there may be scope for charging for some niche or specialist content when those opportunities arise. So, we would not close our mind to those.
[123] Bethan Jenkins: Do you consider putting different stories online and in the newspapers, or would you consider doing more of that? I know that Golwg360 tries to put very different stories in the magazine and online. Are you successful in doing that, or could you do more of that?
[124] Mr Edmunds: That goes back to what I said at the beginning, which is about trying to ensure that the newspapers and websites work well together. Newspapers everywhere have started to get better at that. It is all about what your readers, your audience and your advertisers want. In other words, it is about ensuring that the two are complementary, and our skill at that is certainly improving. So, we will do things that are online only; for WalesOnline, for example, a lot of the content on our business site never appears in print, while quite a lot of our print content will not appear online. They are fulfilling two different roles and we are trying to ensure that they work together in a complementary fashion.
[125] Kenneth Skates: The costs associated with online content are far lower than for print content. Do you have any established models, or any predictions or illustrations, for future increases in revenue associated with online advertising compared with print advertising? I am conscious of the fact that online revenue is currently quite small when compared with print, and with the company being owned by shareholders, there is a need to ensure that they are not scared off before the revenue from online content reaches a point where, after costs, it at least matches what is going out with print. Do you have any kind of predictions or estimates? Are you confident that you will be able to reach that critical point with revenues from online advertising?
[126] Mr Edmunds: Yes. When I talk about the integrated newsroom, news gathering is expensive, so it is crucial that you have a news-gathering operation that gives you the best content possible for all your channels and that you do things once with one reporter who is skilled in many ways. Answering your question first from the editorial side, what you have coming into the industry now are highly skilled young reporters who have multimedia skills—many of them are taught video and online skills on their training courses, and if not, newspaper companies will in many cases give them the skills. The key to it is that there is a great opportunity for them, because they get to write for a variety of newspapers and online sites. You therefore have a news-gathering operation and a newsroom that give you a very efficient news machine. The trick then is to deliver advertising revenue on the back of that content. So, we are investing in a new content management system, which will give us greater scope for that. We have also invested in a system that allows us to sell behaviour-targeted advertising online—many of you will be familiar with that from your own online use, in which adverts for things that you are interested in tend to follow you around.
[127] There are many other ways that I could describe to you. For example, we have just invested in a new customer relationship management system, and that is just about to come in to Media Wales—we begin training for it in the next few weeks. So, a considerable amount of investment is being made for the future, to grow our revenues in print and online.
[128] Kenneth Skates: With specific regard to the convergence media platforms, you were saying that students are pretty proficient in online and print media techniques, but the NUJ has said that the situation has actually worsened with regard to journalistic quality. Is that something that you would disagree with?
[129] Mr Edmunds: Completely. It is very easy to make such a statement, but if you go into newsrooms now, you will find some incredibly talented young journalists. Yes, people have to work very hard, but I think that that is true of every industry, as there may be fewer people having to do more in recent years. There is nothing unusual about that—
[130] Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, but I think that the point that the NUJ was making was that there are fewer resources. It was not against having to do anything multiplatform, but when there are fewer journalists to do the job, that makes life much more difficult. That is the point that it was trying to make.
[131] Mr Edmunds: There are fewer journalists, but we work in a different way. So, if the way in which we work—the new model—is different and more efficient, it does not follow at all that the quality suffers. In fact, far from it. When I entered newspapers, there were some journalists who did not work very hard at all. That is not the case now; the culture is a very hard-working one, and a very professional one. Take Martin Shipton from the NUJ, for example: there we have one of the most, if not the most, respected, accomplished journalists in Wales, and he is in an environment where he has the freedom to deliver the stories that he does, and he is not alone in that. So, I think that the culture in the newsroom allows for excellence, and the idea that journalists do not have time to do their job well is one that I do not accept at all.
[132] Kenneth Skates: Do you think that we in Wales generally—not your company specifically—have enough experienced and quality journalism in place to deal with the democratic deficit?
[133] Mr Edmunds: Absolutely. Look at the BBC: does BBC Wales not have some outstanding journalists? If you look at sport, we have some outstanding rugby and football writers in the regional papers. You mentioned the South Wales Evening Post and South Wales Echo, where some of the journalism is of the highest standard, as are the campaigns that they run. Why people want to talk that down is often beyond me. Some current standards of journalism are as high as anything that we have seen in the past. I do not look back on the past and see great regional journalism that is not being replicated now.
[134] Kenneth Skates: Is there still a future for profit-motivated newspapers?
[135] Mr Edmunds: Absolutely.
[136] Kenneth Skates: Janet, could you ask about the Hargreaves review?
[137] Janet Finch-Saunders: I was going to go on to ask about the community and national assets. The NUJ said that the Welsh Government should be able to declare newspapers as community and national assets, and should be able to intervene when owners propose the closure of titles. What is your response to that?
[138] Mr Edmunds: It was an interesting idea. However, we are a private company producing newspapers and websites for Wales; Wales needs that—Wales needs an independent, private, commercial news service, and it would be all the poorer if it did not have one. The idea of public ownership of those assets is based on very little substance, and, as I said before, there is no question of us wanting to sell the Western Mail. What the Welsh Government would want to do from the point of view of some sort of news provision that it provides would be a matter for it, but I do not see it as a very strong argument.
[139] Janet Finch-Saunders: What else do you think that the Welsh Government could be doing to strengthen the media in Wales?
[140] Mr Edmunds: I engage with the Welsh Government all the time on these issues. It is very important that there is an understanding of the issues faced in the media and of general behaviours. If there is a desire to have a national newspaper for Wales, as there clearly is, it is important that it is supported by the Welsh Government in its spend. The issue that came up at your previous session regarding local council newspapers is a key one; they are not helpful, as money is diverted into those newspapers that could be spent on the regional press, which also gives a better service to readers. An awareness of those issues is the key thing.
[141] Bethan Jenkins: The evidence that we have received has been trying to say that many local newspapers, such as the Neath Guardian and the Port Talbot Guardian, have closed and that there has been a democratic deficit in those areas as a result. We are trying to look at ideas from places in Europe where there are public subsidies, such as Norway and Sweden. That would help to sustain struggling newspaper titles, as clearly happened in those instances, so that they would not have to close. Those journalists could then be retained in those areas to do the job that they wanted to do.
[142] As a company, do you look at different models? If you were to propose closing any local newspapers in the future, would you be more willing to consult with us as Assembly Members and with wider civic society to see what could be achieved instead? For example, you said that surgeries in local charity shops did not work. Are there things that you are looking at so that these closures do not happen again in the future?
[143] Mr Edmunds: Do you mean so that we do not have to close titles? We introduced a new model this year in our weekly papers in the south Wales Valleys. It means that we produce those papers in a different way.
[144] Bethan Jenkins: With all due respect, those papers receive information from Assembly Members who do not even represent the area. For example, the Merthyr Express has stories from the Cynon Valley and the Rhondda Valley, and people in the area get very confused about who represents them, because of the new business model that you seem to think works.
[145] Mr Edmunds: You asked me whether I was introducing new business models, so my answer was that we are.
[146] Bethan Jenkins: Is that working, given that people are getting news about a different area?
[147] Mr Edmunds: I will explain the model to you. Why have we introduced the new business model? This goes directly to your question. It is to make sure that papers have a sustainable future and to make sure that they are profitable. That model does not take away any local news at all. It adds some extra news from across the Valleys. That might take some time to bed in, because it is a very new model, but it does not take anything away from the reader—it adds to it. It gives those papers the best possible future, and that is why we have done it.
1.45 p.m.
[148] Bethan Jenkins: Could you define how it adds to that paper? Personally, I cannot see how it adds to a local paper like the Merthyr Express to include detailed information about other parts of the Valleys, or Assembly Members who represent other areas—people want local news. I see that as a conflict.
[149] Mr Edmunds: There is very local news in those papers. We have not taken any local news away. We have added to it. This is very new, and when we introduce something new, we talk to people about it. That is what we are doing now. We will listen to readers and adapt as we go along. What I am really explaining to you is why we have done it. The reason we have done it is to give them the most sustainable future. We have not done it because of any reason other than to give readers and advertisers the best possible papers with the best possible future. I would be very interested in your feedback on the papers, and to talk to you about that.
[150] Kenneth Skates: Briefly, I want to ask about Alastair Campbell’s evidence yesterday at the Leveson inquiry. I thought that it was quite interesting when he was talking about the owners of the papers not being British residents—the papers that he called ‘putrid’. The inference that I took from that was that, where you do not have local ownership and accountability, you sometimes do not have responsibility. Is there an issue with having millions of shareholders owning publications in Wales but living overseas, or in England? They might not have the best interests of Welsh citizens at heart, and instead would be looking to ensure that the share price of, for example, Trinity Mirror rises, rather than ensuring that the quality of content rises.
[151] Mr Edmunds: I do not accept that at all. I do not think that you can equate that to what Alastair Campbell was saying.
[152] Kenneth Skates: Is there no issue about ownership outside Wales? In other evidence, Tindle Newspapers Ltd and NWN Media identified the fact that they were locally owned and committed to communities as making them accountable to the communities. It was not a problem, in contrast with having shareholders owning the paper without living in the country or having an interest in the product. It could be soap that Trinity Mirror was selling for all the shareholders care.
[153] Mr Edmunds: I would say absolutely not, and I do not accept that at all.
[154] Kenneth Skates: The issue of local authority free papers keeps coming up. Do you have an opinion on those?
[155] Mr Edmunds: Obviously, they are not helpful to companies such as ours, which are trying to provide good regional papers to those markets. They are extremely unhelpful, and I do not really understand how they are defensible.
[156] Kenneth Skates: On an operational point, the previous witnesses said that they thought that the value of free papers was somewhere between £5 million and £6 million. Would it be possible, in a civil society, for local authorities to ring-fence that money for the purchase of bulk-buying newspapers for distribution within their areas? They would have to have a responsibility to ensure that they are properly distributed among staff, because well-informed staff within a local authority are crucial to understanding the people and the communities that the local authority serves. Would that be an operational possibility, and would that help?
[157] Mr Edmunds: I would have an open mind on exploring any positive ideas. Bulk-selling of newspapers is something that we have moved away from, but we have an open mind on discussing anything that will help the press.
[158] Kenneth Skates: Are there any other questions?
[159] Peter Black: That model, where local authorities either bulk-buy newspapers or move their advertising back from a free sheet to a local newspaper, has in the past caused issues around newspapers being dependent on tens of thousands of pounds each year in advertising. There has been a perception that that has compromised editorial independence, because they are afraid of upsetting the local authority too much. Is that a valid point of view? Is there an issue there?
[160] Mr Edmunds: I have yet to meet an editor who is afraid of upsetting a local authority, I have to say. I have never seen any evidence of that. The key thing, obviously, is that what we strive to give to local authorities that spend with us is the best possible value for money.
[161] Bethan Jenkins: Can you put something on record about more potential job cuts in future? In response to question 18, you said that talk of future cuts is hypothesis and speculation. I understand that, during a recent visit to Media Wales, the financial director for Trinity Mirror refused to rule out further cuts next year. Can you rule that out today?
[162] Mr Edmunds: You would not expect me ever to rule anything out. We have no plans for any cuts. If we were to make any changes, our staff would be the first to know.
[163] Kenneth Skates: Is there anything else that Media Wales is doing at the moment that we should be aware of as best practice that could be shared with other newsgroups?
[164] Mr Edmunds: I think that it would be a very good thing if the members of this committee had the time to come to visit us to see how we work. I made that offer at the previous media inquiry two years ago. I do not think that it happened. I think that it is important to stress how much we engage with the Assembly. I am a regular visitor here, and I think that this is the third time that I have given evidence to an inquiry of this nature. We are very open to discussing issues with you, and we would welcome your coming to visit us so we can show you how we work.
[165] Kenneth Skates: Excellent. Thank you. Thanks very much for attending today. A copy of the transcript will be sent to you for you to check for factual accuracy.
1.52 p.m.
Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Tindle Newspapers a NWN Media Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Tindle Newspapers and NWN Media
[166] Kenneth Skates: I welcome our next set of witnesses. Thank you very much for coming today. I know that the two of you have travelled a bit further than most of the witnesses, particularly Barrie, who, I should say, is my former boss. I was an employee of NWN Media. I want to declare that now. We are looking into the future outlook for the media in Wales. I would like to thank you for your submissions. They were very interesting and provided some very good information. We will proceed straight to questions, if that is okay. First, we are going to look at the current state of the media in Wales and the impact of new technology on this. Previous witnesses to the inquiry have stated that the newspaper industry in Wales is in crisis. As you see it, is that an accurate description of the situation?
[167] Ms Thomas: Certainly not from Tindle’s point of view, no. We have 11 weekly papers in Wales and they are thriving.
[168] Mr Phillips-Jones: There are two elements to my answer to that question. As is the case for my colleague, our papers are thriving in the communities that they serve, but there is a crisis in local media in general, not just in Wales, but across the UK. It is not the crisis that we are hearing about in the Leveson inquiry. That is a crisis, but it is a different sort of crisis—a moral, ethical crisis. The crisis that affects local papers is down to the fact that the business model that has served it well for decades is fracturing in some areas. The fear is that, even when the economy improves, that will not change significantly. The cornerstones that have sustained it for years—classified advertisements, job advertising and so on—have changed. That is what is bringing about the crisis. Of course, we all want good local journalism, but someone somewhere has to pay for that. It has to be sustainable in a business context. That is the element that is difficult for all of us. Someone somewhere has to pay for quality journalism, and what is causing difficulty in the industry is that the business model that has served it well for years is changing.
[169] Ms Thomas: Wales has its particular difficulties because of the issues of transport and communications in rural areas.
[170] Kenneth Skates: Yes, I read that.
[171] Ms Thomas: Cambrian News, which is where I am from, has a huge circulation area, and there are huge costs involved in serving that area.
[172] Kenneth Skates: In reading the submissions, I was interested to see quite a contrast emerging between the value of weekly papers and the value of daily papers, and the viability of them. I say ‘value’; I mean the cost of producing them. Is there a reason why you do not produce a daily paper?
[173] Ms Thomas: It is because of cost, I guess. There are two daily papers already: the Western Mail and the Daily Post. Tindle Newspapers, of which we are a part, does not, generally, deal with daily papers. We believe in the value of very local papers, serving their communities well.
[174] Bethan Jenkins: Given how fast the news is moving, do you think that weekly papers can be as representative when people are finding other ways of accessing news?
[175] Ms Thomas: It is a new challenge for papers. We have to embrace the digital age, but, in Wales, and in rural areas of Wales in particular, people still want their weekly papers with their very local news. Although you can find a lot of information on the internet, it is the very local stuff that people are interested in. We know that, generally, people are only interested in what is happening within a small radius of where they live, and that is what weekly papers provide well.
[176] Kenneth Skates: Barrie, you were talking about the current model, so how do you envisage future models could be shaped and assisted by Welsh Government?
[177] Mr Phillips-Jones: We have a daily paper that straddles the border; we have a Chester edition of it as well. Within its market the penetration is significant, and we have 14 weekly papers across mid and north Wales. One of my points, when I wrote to you, although it figured as a bit of a rant, was the fact that local papers are seen in the context in which they publish. Although Trinity has a successful paper in south Wales and the Daily Post, if you are in Denbigh or Newtown, or further west in Aberystwyth, your local paper is the Cambrian News, County Times, the Denbighshire Free Press or the Wrexham Leader. Those are not Trinity titles. So, when we are having this debate it is important that the real media landscape of Wales and the penetration those titles have in those localities are seen for what they are. The model of sustaining a daily paper, and making a profit to sustain quality journalism in it, is getting increasingly difficult, but we have no plans, as Alan was saying, to turn anything weekly at the moment.
[178] Coming back to what I was saying earlier, the commercial platform to sustain investment in journalism is a difficult one. I appreciate the Assembly’s interest and willingness to help us as much as it can, but it has to be a commercial model that sustains it. You can understand where the thinking behind the suggestion made last week about nationalising the paper comes from. However, for a local press to be valuable and useful in its area, I would argue that it has to have independence.
[179] Bethan Jenkins: It was not about nationalising anything, it was throwing ideas out; I was the one who did it. We were throwing ideas out with regard to possible models, because I was looking at what different countries do. For example, in Europe substantial amounts of money from Government goes towards helping struggling newspapers, helping to develop journalism capacity or helping niche editions and minority language editions. So, it was just about having that debate and recognising that some titles may not be able to survive without some sort of Government intervention. Do you have an opinion on that?
[180] Mr Phillips-Jones: It is an interesting idea. It is one that I struggle to see working in relation to the concept of independent journalism. For example, we try to diversify what we do, we try to get more and more online and make that a growing part of the business, but you are always up against the BBC in that context. So, while it is positive to think of sustaining something that we think is of value with some public input, when you start breaking it down and looking at what would be workable, who knows? It is a good idea, and perhaps we can look at that.
[181] Kenneth Skates: I am sorry to repeat myself on free papers, but I have asked other witnesses about them: what is your opinion about free papers from local authorities and other public bodies?
[182] Ms Thomas: We, and I am sure that Barrie agrees, are not in favour of the whole idea of council newspapers, because they are not independent; they have a bias. The money that is spent on producing them could be better spent on investing in independent papers that will serve the communities that those councils cover.
[183] Mr Phillips-Jones: To be completely honest, we invested £15 million in a new press in Wales, which produces our papers and prints papers for anyone else who is willing to pay for them—and that goes for local authorities. That is a different element of our business, so, in that respect, we would not want to be turning money away. However, journalistically, I see no value in them at all; they amount to council propaganda and are a waste of public money.
[184] Kenneth Skates: So, you would prefer them to be buying advertising features?
[185] Mr Phillips-Jones: Yes, of course.
[186] Ms Thomas: Well, not just advertising features, but we certainly do not want to see council papers. We do not have any in my particular area, but, as Barrie says, they serve no purpose; they are just propaganda.
[187] Kenneth Skates: Barrie, you answered the question that I was going to ask about whether you had any plans to turn any of the daily newspapers into weekly newspapers. So, there are no plans at the moment to do that, are there?
[188] Mr Phillips-Jones: No, there are no plans at the moment, but we must constantly consider our business model. In the same way as Alan Edmunds answered the question, the answer to whether there are plans to turn The Leader into a weekly newspaper is that there are not, but it is something that we would always consider. If we ever got to the stage where you were able to pull the revenue that you were sustaining on a daily basis into one weekly edition, and all the sums added up, then you would have to consider it. However, it is not on our agenda at the moment.
[189] Bethan Jenkins: Would it be if circulation was an issue? What happened in Liverpool with the Liverpool Daily Post was that, given that circulation was very low, a decision was taken based on that.
[190] Mr Phillips-Jones: The circulation would have to be much lower than it currently is. Our current business model for The Leader, which has three editions daily, is sustainable with regard to its profitability. As you are aware, Northcliffe Media titles are currently changing—not in Wales but elsewhere—from an evening and a morning model to a weekly model, because it makes financial sense to do so. Unfortunately, although, as a journalist, you would like to take a purist perspective, if the sums do not add up, then it is difficult to persuade the people who are ultimately paying for it to sustain that investment.
[191] Throughout time, there has always been a commercial model driving investment in journalism. The Times had a correspondent in Iraq in 1915 because it suited the business model of the time. It did not put one there because it was a good thing to do; it was part of the business model and it was driving an audience for that title. Once you have an audience, you can then sell to it. What is currently happening is that the arguments for sustaining huge investments in quality journalism are falling away if you look purely at the bottom line.
[192] Kenneth Skates: I asked Alan Edmunds this question, so I will ask it to you: is there is a future for profit-motive local newspapers in Wales, or should we be looking at new models, such as co-operative and not-for-profit models?
[193] Ms Thomas: There is definitely still a profit to be made, but it is about balancing it out. I do not think that Tindle Newspapers in particular has ever looked for huge profits. Its papers in Wales are all profitable and are making good profits, but we also look at them as community assets. They are part of their communities and they are working for the communities that they serve. So, it is about balancing those two. Our readers do not see us as businesses, so they find it difficult to grasp the profit side of things, but, obviously, we must run them as businesses.
[194] Bethan Jenkins: How would you put the profits back into Wales and into those particular communities?
[195] Ms Thomas: Tindle Newspapers, certainly in the past few months, has launched two new papers in Wales, so that is the way that it has done it. We have also invested in staff—unlike other newspaper groups, Tindle Newspapers has not made a single member of staff redundant since the recession started, or even before the recession. There has been some natural wastage, but no redundancies. So, there has been an investment in staff.
[196] Kenneth Skates: Again, I raised with Alan Edmunds the dispute over whether Alastair Campbell’s inference at the Leveson inquiry is correct that there is an issue with the ownership being in the hands of people from outside Britain and what is happening within the British tabloid press. Is there a correlation between the interests of the readers and who the owners are and where they live?
[197] Ms Thomas: I do not think that there has to be. Obviously, Sir Ray Tindle, our owner, is based in Surrey, but all the general managers in Wales run their papers for him, and he gives them great autonomy. That works well, because you have local managers in those areas. I do not think that it necessarily means that you could not have an owner living outside Britain—as long as you had people in charge of the newspapers who were able to run them locally.
[198] Mr Phillips-Jones: I do not think that that is a huge issue, and certainly not for us in Wales. The crisis that is being talked through in the Leveson inquiry reflects what has been happening at the sharp end rather than the ownership end. That is how I perceive it.
[199] Kenneth Skates: Are you able to explain any specific and distinct difficulties facing the Welsh-language press, as compared with the English-language press?
[200] Ms Thomas: We have Y Cymro, the Welsh-language newspaper, and it is hugely difficult with Welsh-language publications at the moment. There is a very small readership—a circulation of about 2,500—so it is difficult to attract advertising. Whereas in the past we had good support from public bodies, advertising-wise, that has dried up, so it is very tough at the moment. If it were not part of our larger group, then its future would probably be in doubt.
[201] Bethan Jenkins: Would you consider working with Golwg360 in terms of it doing some news online and you providing that in the paper? Is that totally inconceivable because of the magazine Golwg?
[202] Ms Thomas: Y Cymro has its own website. You have to have plurality, do you not? If it were all being done by one body, then that would cause me concern.
[203] Bethan Jenkins: So you could not share stories, or have some sort of agreement.
[204] Ms Thomas: You could in theory, but then you would not have plurality; everyone would be seeing the same body of news, would they not? Competition is healthy, and readers benefit from that.
[205] Mr Phillips-Jones: On the Welsh language, speaking as an individual rather than an editor with NWN Media, my view about the bid was that, although the sustainable business model was questionable, there was a sound argument for investment from the Government of Wales because there was a desire to have a Welsh-language national newspaper. It is my view that that should have persisted. In our own Welsh-language context, what we have currently is a training programme for journalists in partnership with Glyndŵr University. They spend some time learning the academic elements at Glyndŵr and then have placements with us in our newsroom, which is a live environment that you cannot replicate in a classroom. The course is accredited by the National Council for the Training of Journalists, and one of the ambitions that we have currently, and which you should see very shortly, is to allow students to achieve those qualifications through the medium of Welsh. Currently, they cannot do that anywhere. It is something that we believe in, and it will be great to train journalists through the medium of Welsh to work in a Welsh media.
[206] Kenneth Skates: Janet, could you take up the questions on the communications Bill?
[207] Janet Finch-Saunders: What are your views on the current competition rules that govern media consolidation? Do they need changing?
[208] Ms Thomas: I think that relaxation would help. I am not sure that it would particularly help us. I see no need for there to be restrictions to stop that crossover between different media.
[209] Mr Phillips-Jones: I feel the same. They should be relaxed to improve the business potential of local papers. The fears that journalism consequently would become more bland are unfounded. I do not feel that it would. Obviously, there need to be guidelines, but currently, the restrictions are strangling opportunities for shared ownership. If there were changes, it would greatly assist the local media across Britain.
[210] Janet Finch-Saunders: What issues need to be dealt with in the communications Bill?
[211] Mr Phillips-Jones: Without knowing a huge amount about the detail, there seems to be an overriding fear of compromising independence, which I think is out of kilter with reality. As Alan was saying, the quality of local journalism is as good as ever it was. Yes, there have been some reductions, but people are now working on a wider canvas that takes in online content and print, and the training and investment is still considerable when you consider the fact that profitability has fallen. If the rules were relaxed, it would give some local media companies the opportunity to cut the cake in a different way, which would allow them to sustain investment perhaps in a way that they currently cannot contemplate.
[212] Peter Black: We have talked a little about online content already, and I got the impression that you place greater emphasis on the print side in terms of the way in which you deliver.
[213] Ms Thomas: We try to balance both. It is true to say that we have great interest in maintaining our papers, and what we need to do is to ensure that we do not jeopardise them in our business model. So, what we have tried to do, which is perhaps different to what other companies have done, is this: we have our website, but we do not put the stories on it in full; we just put three or four paragraphs of every story there, to encourage people, if they want to read the full story, to buy our papers. Conversely, in the paper edition, we will put maybe four or five pictures from an event—an eisteddfod or something—and we will say, ‘For more pictures, see our website’. What we are trying to do is to encourage people to use both.
[214] Peter Black: What sort of hits do you get on your websites?
[215] Ms Thomas: We get about 100,000 a month.
[216] Peter Black: That is not bad, is it? What about NWN?
[217] Mr Phillips-Jones: We have invested a fair amount, financially and creatively, in developing our websites, and we do get an awful lot of visitors to them. It is just that, six or seven years ago, newspaper companies felt that revenue would migrate perhaps faster than it has from print to online versions. As with print, however creative you are, and however much investment you put in, you will eventually need to see the lines crossing so that you get a reasonable return for the investment. Arguments are still going on in the industry about the successful model for online journalism. It is not just for newspapers such as ours; The Guardian and Mail Online have the largest online audiences in the world, but it is so disparate that it is still difficult to make money from it. It is a wonderful service for readers, and that is where the paywall argument kicks in.
[218] It is something that we are investing in, and an awful lot of creativity is going into that area—each of our titles has its own web environment, and we break news online; we do not keep anything back. However, you need to bear in mind that your strategy must eventually get revenue flowing a lot faster than it currently does, and that is not peculiar to us; it is across the board.
[219] Ms Thomas: Certainly, our newspaper advertisers are barely interested in advertising on our websites.
[220] Kenneth Skates: Do you envisage the situation improving to the point where, one day, you could have profit margins for the online versions?
[221] Ms Thomas: We encourage some advertisers to take a package that includes paper and web, with a sell-on rate, but it is very difficult to get standalone advertisements on our websites. In the current climate, many people think that advertisers should be offering the web to them as part of the price that they are already paying for print.
[222] Peter Black: Do you think that there is potential to use websites to enhance your content? You mentioned using them as a taster. I am thinking, for example, of multimedia platforms, videos and that sort of thing, to add to what you already have in the paper.
[223] Ms Thomas: We do it in a small way, but there are cost implications, and we do not have any dedicated staff working on our website; it is all done by the one body of staff.
[224] Kenneth Skates: So, neither newspaper group relies on the web to substitute for potential losses in advertising revenue on the print side?
[225] Mr Phillips-Jones: There is undoubted growth, and that is the future. The vision that everybody had six or seven years ago was that, as print sales declined and in-print advertising volume declined, it would automatically transfer online. The way that people look at online content is different: it is not like buying a 15x3 advertisement on page 9 of the daily paper; it is a different advertising concept, and I think that newspapers have to recognise that and find a way of pulling revenue from it. There is an awful lot of creativity going on in that area, but I do not see a huge amount of return yet.
[226] Kenneth Skates: Is there anywhere we should be looking for examples of creativity? Is there any kind of good practice model?
2.15 p.m.
[227] Mr Phillips-Jones: Newspapers have become all sorts of things. You mentioned video before, and not so long ago many newspaper companies thought that that was the future, which meant having reporters in front of the camera. Great work was being done, but it meant significant investment for a local paper to train journalists in video techniques and investing in equipment. There has to be a flow of revenue on the back of it, otherwise it will not be sustained; that is the difficulty. Of course, you have the BBC running alongside, which does not cover local news in huge depth, but is always good enough on the big stories.
[228] Peter Black: To what extent can other online mechanisms be used to enhance what you do, such as social media? Do you use a lot of social media to promote your newspapers?
[229] Mr Phillips-Jones: We have our own Facebook page and we engage with Twitter to pull an audience through for our website and print product.
[230] Kenneth Skates: You tweeted me yesterday.
[231] Mr Phillips-Jones: I did.
[232] Ms Thomas: We do exactly the same to try to encourage people onto our website and to buy our papers. We are looking for that younger audience. We have just launched an app as well, so we are trying to encourage younger people who might not be traditional newspaper buyers.
[233] Peter Black: How successful is that?
[234] Ms Thomas: It is not hugely successful, but we have a few hundred people who are doing it in that way.
[235] Kenneth Skates: Before we leave the subject of online content, I have a question on the control of online content, particularly on comment pages, which have traditionally been unmoderated. Contributors go on there anonymously—I have some pretty amusing lines here that were on comment pages that would never make it into print. They are from people who call themselves things like ‘Mountain Mong’ and ‘Pork chop’. Do you think that there is a need to be proactive in moderating what goes on comment sites, because it could otherwise cause difficulty?
[236] Ms Thomas: We have taken a policy decision at Cambrian News to look at all comments before we allow them to go live. We do not allow the ones that we think are in bad taste or libellous. As long as people make a complaint that is justified, the comment is immediately removed. I do not feel that newspaper groups should have to do more than that.
[237] Mr Phillips-Jones: We moderate post publication, but we try to be responsible. People have to be registered to comment—we have to know who they are. If what is posted is deemed unacceptable, it is taken down. If comment zones are too antiseptic, people will not read them. However, if people are there to be offensive, then we cannot let that run. You are right to say that there are comments that go in there that would probably have been edited from a letters page. However, it is a different sphere, where you are encouraging debate in a different way. If it is too tightly controlled, you will have killed the reason for having it. If unacceptable comments go up, we have a responsibility to take them down quickly.
[238] Ms Thomas: I think that people accept it more online; they would not accept it in newspapers.
[239] Kenneth Skates: It does not mean that it is right.
[240] Ms Thomas: No.
[241] Mr Phillips-Jones: We have also had conflicting legal advice on this. The latest advice is that if any element of editing takes place, it has entered the editing process and, consequently, your responsibility kicks in then. However, if you moderate post publication, your responsibility could arguably kick in at the stage when you need to do something about it.
[242] Bethan Jenkins: There is also a positive way in which you could look at it. Some journalists have told me that they have found stories through comments, so positives can come out of some very negative comments—they can pull out local issues that may not have been heard of in other ways.
[243] Ms Thomas: It also encourages debate in a way in which newspapers cannot quite do, and do so successfully.
[244] Mr Phillips-Jones: It can have a slightly wild-west characteristic to it, like many things online, but that is part of its value, I suppose.
[245] Bethan Jenkins: One of my questions was on public subsidy, but I do not think that I need to go back to that. In its latest evidence, Tindle says that more structured support from the Government and public bodies is needed. What form should that type of support take?
[246] Ms Thomas: As you mentioned, grant funding, not so much to help struggling papers but to encourage papers to grow, would be useful. Obviously, the Government has this huge opportunity with its public notices to increase revenue for papers. We feel that an awful lot of that funding goes to national papers rather than to weekly papers. In the case of Tindle, we have huge penetration throughout the whole of Wales, so that spend could go to weekly papers rather than the nationals.
[247] Mr Phillips-Jones: I would echo that point. I know that, sometimes, the decision makers are reasonably remote in this context. Sometimes, you get a local public notice that has appeared in a Trinity title, when the penetration of another title, be it the Cambrian News or one of our titles, is far greater in that area. For the sake of democracy, it should have been in one of those titles.
[248] Kenneth Skates: So, you are still finding that this is happening.
[249] Ms Thomas: Yes. The circulation of the Cambrian News is 22,500 and the Western Mail is just over 26,000. So, we have almost as much circulation in west Wales as it does in the whole of Wales.
[250] Bethan Jenkins: Is there anything else that the Government could be doing? Earlier, you mentioned Welsh-language journalists being trained, but is there more that could be done on a strategic Government level to develop journalists who could come through to work in papers such as yours?
[251] Ms Thomas: Support for training would obviously be useful. These days, it is harder and harder to attract experienced journalists and you want to be helping youngsters on to the first rung of the ladder to train to be journalists. Some structured support for that would be useful.
[252] Kenneth Skates: Are there any more questions, because we have some time?
[253] Are there any models of best practice in terms of what is happening in Wales at the moment that you are aware of with regard to penetrating new markets or improving revenue from advertising?
[254] Mr Phillips-Jones: To go back slightly to what you were saying about public investment, we were involved in the Independently Funded News Consortia BBC contest, which we won when we were partnered with UTV. Of course, it did not get very far. However, that stacked up for us in that what we had with our partners was a company with the ability to do all the technical elements and we had the penetration in various areas to deliver something that we thought would be worthwhile in the communities. Of course, there was a fair amount of public money tied up in that, and, frankly, that is what made it pan out in that way. Although we expressed an interest in it, the local television option that has been mooted recently seems less clear cut as far as we are concerned. Certain models are sustainable only with input from Welsh Government or some other public concern.
[255] Bethan Jenkins: When the contract for ITV comes up, would you urge that that option be looked at again? We had evidence from the IWA earlier that the Government does not share that sentiment. However, when the licence comes up for renewal, is that something the National Assembly or the Welsh Government could at least put on the table as an idea?
[256] Mr Phillips-Jones: Yes, I think you could. I am not sure how popular it would be with the national Government. It was obviously dead against it because it never even got off the ground. However, the model of local television has to have the presumption of some pretty sizeable revenue to justify the commitment in investment. A television station rooted in Mold, frankly, unless I am missing something, does not have the potential to make many millions, although I am not a television person and we have expressed an initial interest in this because why not do so? The independently funded news consortia one certainly stacked up a lot better. However, I would say that.
[257] Ms Thomas: Mid Wales seems to miss out altogether, really.
[258] Kenneth Skates: Finally, on convergence of media platforms, in its evidence, the NUJ said that, because of fewer and fewer resources in journalism, the convergence of media platforms has actually led to problems with the quality of journalism and too much pressure being put on journalists to obtain material. Would you say that that is correct?
[259] Ms Thomas: We see it happening with some groups. It certainly has not happened with our group. I mentioned to you that we have not made people redundant. In the past four years, Cambrian News has lost one journalist, one reporter and one sub-editor who have not been replaced, so we almost have the staffing levels that we had five or six years ago. So, that has not happened in our area. Perhaps some people now have dual roles that they did not have before, but that works well for us. Certainly, it has not compromised our quality.
[260] Kenneth Skates: Is that why you say that your news group is riding the recession, because you resisted cutting editorial staff?
[261] Ms Thomas: I believe so. We have always run a tight ship, and there have not been job cuts because we have not needed to cut. I do not think that our model has changed from before the recession. We are still investing in staff and our quality has not been compromised. We are building papers, because we have launched two new papers in Chepstow and Pembroke Dock, so we are trying to grow in the recession rather than retract.
[262] Kenneth Skates: Is there much sharing of content? Do you find that one publication will contain much content from others, or are they totally unique?
[263] Ms Thomas: We have different editions and lots of changed pages. There will be some sharing of content, but the areas are so separate that it would not really work to share more.
[264] Mr Phillips-Jones: Journalists are being asked to do more things in different ways. In my experience on our paper, I do not believe that there has been any loss of quality. I can understand the NUJ, in a purist, journalistic context, being concerned about that, but what is driving it is reduced profitability, and newspaper groups of all sizes are having to balance their investment in resources with that. I can only speak for us in that we have had to work in different ways, and we have had to lose some staff, but journalists are now working in very flexible ways, and I would say that our journalism has not been compromised because of that.
[265] Kenneth Skates: Is there anything else that you believe that we should be examining that you would like to share with us?
[266] Ms Thomas: I would like to reiterate the point on council newspapers. If there is anything that the Government can do to restrict the abilities of councils to launch their own products, that would be useful for the future of Welsh newspapers—not just ours, but all of them.
[267] Kenneth Skates: There may be disagreements on that.
[268] Peter Black: I do disagree. It is a business model where a local council can break even on the cost of that paper by using it for advertising rather than using a local newspaper. Your interest is not altruistic; you want the advertising.
[269] Ms Thomas: Partly, yes, but what news would the council newspaper be providing—
[270] Peter Black: Should a council not be able to promote its activities? The Swansea newspaper, for example, promotes events that the council puts on, and tells people about what the council is doing locally—that is not the job of local newspapers; it is not news.
[271] Ms Thomas: If a reader of that paper were to contact the council about a story and say, ‘I am sorry, but I do not think that you are being completely honest there—that service is not doing what you say it is’, would the council then run a story based on that person’s comments? No, it would not.
[272] Peter Black: You cannot say that. The council is not putting news in its paper; it is promoting its own activities. If the council is promoting its activities and breaking even because it is not having to pay advertising costs, surely that is a model that the council should be allowed to use.
[273] Ms Thomas: The council has every opportunity to put positive stories in the Welsh media, and does so successfully now.
[274] Peter Black: Yes, but the Welsh media edits those stories. Would you supply a free advertising feature for council events in your newspaper?
[275] Ms Thomas: Not a free advertising feature.
[276] Peter Black: Exactly.
[277] Kenneth Skates: However, you would feature events in the news section, and that is the crucial thing. It would always be in ‘What’s On’.
[278] Peter Black: That is not the same thing though, is it?
[279] Ms Thomas: Papers do not publish only negative news about councils.
[280] Peter Black: I am not arguing that what you are doing is wrong. I am saying that the council is using these newspapers to promote its own activities—
[281] Ms Thomas: But is that right if it jeopardises—
[282] Peter Black: It is not the council’s job to prop up local newspapers. It is the council’s job to promote its own activities and, in doing so, it is breaking even because of the money that it is saving on advertising.
[283] Mr Phillips-Jones: The council is spending public money on these papers.
[284] Peter Black: No, it is not; it is breaking even, because of the money that it is saving on advertising. In the case of Swansea, for example, the advertising money has paid for the council paper, because the council does not have to pay to advertise in the local Evening Post anymore.
[285] Kenneth Skates: However, it costs a lot to collect the papers from the street, where most people dump them.
[286] Peter Black: I could say that about any newspaper.
[287] Kenneth Skates: That was just a facetious comment—sorry. We have opened something that we probably will not get 100 per cent agreement on. I thank the witnesses for attending today. There will be a transcript of this coming your way for you to check for accuracy.
[288] Mr Phillips-Jones: Thank you for the invitation.
[289] Kenneth Skates: Not at all. We will break for five minutes.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 2.30 p.m. a 2.35 p.m. The meeting adjourned between 2.30 p.m. and 2.35 p.m.
Ymchwiliad i’r Rhagolygon ar gyfer Dyfodol y Cyfryngau yng Nghymru: Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Inquiry into the Future Outlook for the Media in Wales: Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg
[290] Kenneth Skates: Prynhawn da. Diolch for attending today. We are looking into the future outlook for the media in Wales. I thank you for your submission and for attending today. The meeting is being conducted bilingually, so channel 0 is amplification and channel 1 is the translation from Welsh to English.
[291] Yr wyf yn siarad Cymraeg ychydig bach.		I speak a little bit of Welsh.
[292] However, my English is better, so I will be using it myself. We will proceed immediately to questions, because time is of the essence. I will begin my asking about the current state of the media in Wales and how new technology is affecting the media. What are the main challenges facing the Welsh-language media over the next few years? What are the biggest areas of concern for the society in respect of that?
[293] Ms Williams: Ein bwriad heddiw yw cynrychioli barn gwylwyr sy’n Gymry Cymraeg yn hytrach na buddiannau darlledwyr unigol, felly yr ydym yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i gael gwneud hynny. Yr wyf am sôn am dri pheth, sef radio lleol, S4C a’r cyfryngau digidol o ran yr heriau sy’n wynebu’r cyfryngau ar hyn o bryd.		Ms Williams: Our intention today is to represent the view of Welsh-speaking viewers rather than individual broadcasters’ interests, so we are grateful for the opportunity to do that. I want to speak about three things, namely local radio, S4C and digital media in terms of the challenges that face the media at present.
[294] Yr ydym yn teimlo nad oes llais cryf o fewn y cyfryngau ar hyn o bryd ac felly bod cyfryngau Cymraeg yn cael eu gadael ar ôl. Daeth hynny’n fwy amlwg yn ystod y trafodaethau ar ddyfodol S4C, pan gafodd llais Cymru ei anwybyddu’n gyfan gwbl. Buom yn gweithio gyda nifer o undebau a mudiadau. Yr oedd degau ar filoedd o bobl yn rhan o’n hymgyrch, gan gynnwys dau bwyllgor yn San Steffan, y pedair prif blaid yng Nghymru ac Archesgob Cymru. Yr oedd llawer o gonsensws, ond cafodd y llais hwnnw ei anwybyddu’n gyfan gwbl mewn gwirionedd. Yr oedd diffyg ymgynghori o ran y cytundeb rhwng S4C a’r BBC a diffyg democratiaeth fewnol o ran y BBC. Cafodd lleisiau’r gwylwyr eu hanwybyddu yn gyfan gwbl yn ystod y trafodaethau.		We feel that there is not a strong voice within the media at present and therefore the Welsh-language media are being left behind. That became more apparent during the discussions on the future of S4C, when Wales’s voice was ignored entirely. We collaborated with a number of unions and organisations. Tens of thousands of people were part of our campaign, including two committees in Westminster, the four main parties in Wales and the Archbishop of Wales. There was a lot of consensus, but that voice was totally ignored in all honesty. There was lack of consultation on the agreement between S4C and the BBC and a lack of internal democracy in terms of the BBC. Viewers’ voices were ignored completely during the discussions.
[295] Yn sgîl y penderfyniad hwn, yr ydym yn wynebu toriadau o hyd sy’n bygwth gwasanaethau o fewn S4C ac a fydd, o bosibl, yn creu tensiynau. Yr ydym yn rhagweld y bydd tensiynau ieithyddol rhwng y ddwy iaith. Mae S4C yn sefydliad hollbwysig sy’n hybu gweithio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a hefyd yn hybu’r iaith ei hun. Bydd cyfuno S4C â gwasanaethau eraill nad ydynt o natur Gymraeg eu hiaith yn arwain at densiynau ieithyddol. Yr hyn a fyddai’n gwneud yn iawn am hynny yw gweld cyfrifoldeb dros ddarlledu yn cael ei ddatganoli i Gymru ac, yn fwy na hynny, dylai S4C a’r BBC ddatganoli o’u canolfannau yng Nghaerdydd a bod yn rhan berthnasol o’n cymunedau fel bod pobl yn teimlo perchenogaeth a pherthynas â’r sefydliadau hynny. Yn fwy na hynny, byddai’n creu swyddi yn ein cymunedau a byddem yn gweld llai o allfudo o’n cymunedau.		In light of this decision, we are still facing cuts that threaten services within S4C and that will possibly create tensions. We anticipate that there will be linguistic tensions between the two languages. S4C is a crucially important institution that promotes working through the medium of Welsh and also promotes the language itself. Merging S4C with other services that are not Welsh-language in their nature will lead to linguistic tensions. What could compensate for that would be the devolution of responsibility for broadcasting to Wales and, more than that, if S4C and the BBC were to devolve their activities from their centres in Cardiff and become relevant parts of our communities so that people could feel a sense of ownership and have a relationship with those institutions. More than that, it would create jobs in our communities and we would see less outward migration from our communities.
[296] O ran radio, yr ydym yn sicr wedi gweld bod radio cymunedol wedi methu o ran y Gymraeg. Y prif reswm dros hynny yw, gan mai cwmnïau masnachol sydd wrth y llyw, nid y gwasanaeth ei hun sydd bob amser ar flaen eu hagenda. Nid oes unrhyw beth yn diogelu buddiannau’r Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd. A dweud y gwir, mae gwasanaethau radio sydd ar gael yn Gymraeg yn brin ac maent yn dirywio. Buom mewn cyfarfod a oedd yn trafod teledu lleol yn ddiweddar, yng Nghasnewydd, lle dywedodd Jeremy Hunt, y Gweinidog diwylliant, yn blwmp ac yn blaen na fyddai cymal ieithyddol o ran teledu lleol, ac mae hynny’n bryder i ni. Cyfarfod ar gyfer Cymru a gorllewin Lloegr ydoedd, ac mae’r holl gynllun yn dangos na roddir ystyriaeth i natur wahanol anghenion darlledu yng Nghymru fel rhan o’r trafodaethau. Felly, rhagwelwn, os bydd teledu lleol yn cael ei ddatblygu, y bydd yn mynd i’r un cyfeiriad â radio lleol. Yr hyn sydd ei angen, felly, yw bod newidiadau yn y Bil cyfathrebu a fydd yn golygu bod y grymoedd dros osod amodau ieithyddol ar drwyddedau radio a theledu yn cael eu datganoli i awdurdodau yng Nghymru.		In terms of radio, we have certainly seen that community radio has failed in relation to the Welsh language. The main reason for that is that as commercial companies are in charge, the service itself is not always at the top of their agenda. There is nothing to safeguard the interests of the Welsh language at present. To be honest, the radio services available through the medium of Welsh are few and far between and are deteriorating. We attended a meeting to discuss local television recently, in Newport, where Jeremy Hunt, the Minister for culture, said clearly that there would not be a language clause in terms of local television, and that is of concern to us. It was a meeting for Wales and the west of England, and the whole scheme demonstrates that there will be no consideration given to the different nature of broadcasting requirements in Wales as part of the discussions. Therefore, we anticipate that, if local television is developed, it will go down the same sort of route as local radio. What is required, therefore, are changes to the communications Bill devolving powers for laying linguistic conditions on radio and television licences to authorities in Wales.
[297] O ran y cyfryngau digidol, mae’r Gymraeg yn sicr yn cael ei gadael ar ôl. Mae’r cyfryngau digidol wedi dod yn norm yn Saesneg; yr ydym wedi gweld cynnydd dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf o ran y defnydd o gyfryngau digidol yn Saesneg, yn enwedig ymysg pobl ifanc. Fodd bynnag, mae’r ffaith bod hynny’n digwydd yn Saesneg yn cadarnhau’r meddylfryd mai iaith addysg yw Saesneg, ac mai iaith y pethau traddodiadol Cymreig a Chymraeg yw’r iaith Gymraeg. Fodd bynnag, yn amlwg, nid yw’r meddylfryd hwnnw’n gwneud dim i hybu’r Gymraeg. Felly, yr hyn sydd ei angen mewn gwirionedd yw S4C newydd, sy’n aml-gyfryngol, gyda gwasanaethau digidol sy’n ychwanegu at, nid yn disodli, yr hyn sydd yno’n barod.		With regard to digital media, there is no doubt that the Welsh language is being left behind. Digital media have become the norm in English; we have seen an increase over the last few years in the use of digital media through the medium of English, particularly among young people. However, the fact that this happens in English confirms the mindset that English is the language of education, and that Welsh is seen as the language of the more traditionally Welsh things. However, it is clear that that mindset does nothing to promote the Welsh language. So, what is required is a new S4C, which is multimedia, and provides digital services that add value, rather than replace what is there already.
[298] Caiff y meddylfryd hwn ei weld hefyd drwy Radio Cymru, yn enwedig drwy C2, gan fod y gwasanaeth yn troi drwy’r amser at ddiwylliant Seisnig ac Eingl-Americanaidd, yn hytrach na rhoi llwyfan i’r holl ddiwylliant Cymraeg sydd ar gael a gwneud y gorau ohono. Yr ydym o’r farn y dylai Radio Cymru, yn ogystal ag S4C, fod yn drwyadl ddwyieithog yn ddiamod. Yn fwy na hynny, dylai’r corfforaethau weithio a gweinyddu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Byddai hynny, yn ei dro, yn golygu y byddai’r cwmnïau a’r darlledwyr eraill y maent yn cydweithio â nhw yn fwy tebygol o fod yn fwy blaengar o ran eu gwasanaethau Cymraeg.		This mindset is also seen in Radio Cymru, particularly C2, given that the service constantly turns to English and Anglo-American culture, rather than giving a platform and making the most of all the Welsh culture that exists. We are of the opinion that Radio Cymru, as well as S4C, should be thoroughly bilingual. More than that, the corporations should work and carry out their administration through the medium of Welsh. That, in turn, would mean that the other companies and broadcasters that they work with would be more likely to be more innovative with regard to their Welsh-language services.
[299] Mr Nosworthy: I ategu hynny, wrth edrych ar ddyfodol S4C, gwelir bod consensws clir wedi datblygu. Sylwaf o’r dystiolaeth yr ydych wedi’i derbyn eisoes oddi wrth Teledwyr Annibynnol Cymru ac S4C bod angen sicrhad mewn statud ar gyfer yr arian i S4C yn yr hir dymor. Mae hynny’n un o’r pethau yr oedd y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig yn San Steffan wedi’i gefnogi, oherwydd mae cael mwy o arian i S4C drwy statud ar sail chwyddiant yn hollbwysig i ddyfodol y sianel. Yr ydym felly’n ceisio bod yn rhan o’r trafodaethau ynghylch y Bil cyfathrebu. Heb y sicrwydd hwnnw, ni fydd sefydlogrwydd i’r sianel, nac ychwaith yr annibyniaeth sydd ei hangen arni ar gyfer y dyfodol.		Mr Nosworthy: To add to that, in looking at the future of S4C, a clear consensus has been seen to develop. I notice from the evidence that you have already received from Welsh Independent Producers and S4C that there is a need for certainty in statute for S4C funding in the long term. That is one of the things that the Welsh Affairs Committee in Westminster has supported, because securing more inflation-proof funding for S4C in statute is crucial to the future of the channel. We are therefore trying to be part of the discussions in relation to the communications Bill. Without that certainty, there will be no stability for the channel, or the independence that it needs for the future.
[300] Kenneth Skates: Bethan has specific questions relating to the possible devolution of powers over broadcasting and the communications Bill.
[301] Bethan Jenkins: Dywedwch yn eich tystiolaeth y byddai’n syniad datganoli pŵer dros ddarlledu i Gymru. Byddai o gymorth inni wybod a oes gennych unrhyw syniadau ar gyfer modelau posibl. Nid oedd S4C yn dweud y naill ffordd neu’r llall a oedd am ddatganoli darlledu, er bod y problemau hyn wedi datblygu yn sgîl trafodaethau a ddigwyddodd yn Llundain, ac nid yng Nghymru. Felly, beth yw eich barn chi am fodelau posibl y gellid eu cyflwyno  o ganlyniad i ddatganoli?		Bethan Jenkins: You say in your evidence that it would be an idea to devolve broadcasting powers to Wales. It would be helpful for us to know whether you have any ideas for any possible models. S4C did not say one way or the other whether it wanted to see broadcasting devolved, even though these problems developed as a result of discussions held in London rather than in Wales. So, what is your opinion on possible models that could be adopted as a result of devolution?
[302] Mr Nosworthy: Mae safbwynt y gymdeithas yn un eithaf syml mewn un ffordd: yr ydym yn credu y dylai darlledu a thelegyfathrebu gael eu datganoli’n llwyr i’r Cynulliad, fel unrhyw fater arall mewn maes datganoledig. Cam gweddol hawdd tuag at hynny fyddai’r £7 miliwn mae’r Llywodraeth yn sôn amdano fel grant ar ddiwedd 2013-14 i gyllideb S4C. Felly, cam hawdd iawn ar y ffordd i ddatganoli darlledu fyddai symud y cyfrifoldeb am grant DCMS i S4C i’r Cynulliad. Mewn un ffordd, mae ein model yn un syml iawn, oherwydd ein bod yn credu mewn datganoli heb gyfyngiad. Felly, dylai maes darlledu, fel unrhyw faes arall—iechyd ac addysg, er enghraifft—gael ei ddatganoli yn ei gyfanrwydd.		Mr Nosworthy: The society’s viewpoint is quite simple in one respect: we believe that broadcasting and telecommunications should be devolved in their entirety to the Assembly, like any other matter in a devolved field. A relatively simple step towards that would be the £7 million that the Government is talking about as a grant at the end of 2013-14 for the S4C budget. So, a relatively easy step on the way to the devolution of broadcasting would be to shift responsibility for the DCMS grant for S4C to the Assembly. In one respect, our model is very simple, because we believe in devolution without any conditions. So, broadcasting, like any other field—education and health, for example—should be devolved in its entirety.
2.45 p.m.
[303] Sonioch nad oedd darlledwyr eraill yn cymryd safbwynt; mae hynny’n gadarnhaol, oherwydd maent yn dweud bod cyfrifoldeb ar wleidyddion i ddelio â hyn, ac yr ydym yn cytuno â hynny. Yr oeddem yn lansio datganiad yn ddiweddar yn galw ar Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac eraill i gefnogi datganoli darlledu, sy’n dangos nad oes gwrthwynebiad ymhlith darlledwyr i ddatganoli darlledu, felly mae hynny yn gadarnhaol.		You talked about other broadcasters not taking a view; we see that as being positive, because they are saying that there is a responsibility on politicians to take this forward, and we agree with that. We launched a statement recently calling on Assembly Members and others to support the devolution of broadcasting, which demonstrates that there is no opposition among broadcasters to such devolution, so that is positive.
[304] Ms Williams: Rhan greiddiol o hynny, fel y soniais, yw bod S4C a’r BBC yn osgoi canoli yng Nghaerdydd, a bod patrwm a model Cymreig a strwythur gwahanol yn cael eu sefydlu.		Ms Williams: A core part of that, as I mentioned, is that S4C and BBC should not be centralised in Cardiff. We want to see a Welsh pattern and model being established.
[305] Bethan Jenkins: Gan eich bod yn gofyn am S4C newydd a datblygiadau digidol ac aml blatfform, pe bai gweinyddiaeth S4C wedi ei datganoli a fyddai ots lle byddai’r swyddfa?		Bethan Jenkins: As you are asking for a new S4C with digital and multi-platform developments, would it matter where the office was located if the administration was devolved?
[306] Ms Williams: Byddwn yn dadlau, er mwyn i S4C a’r BBC fod yn berthnasol, ac i’r cyhoedd deimlo’n rhan ohono a’u bod yn gallu cyfranogi, bod rhaid i’r darlledwyr gael canolfan yn y cymunedau. Byddai hynny yn creu swyddi hefyd.		Ms Williams: I would argue that, in order for S4C and BBC to be relevant, and for people to feel part of it and to participate, broadcasters would need to have hubs in the community. That would also generate employment.
[307] Dr Brooks: Un o’r pethau mae’r Athro Hargreaves yn dweud yn ei adroddiad yw y dylai darlledwyr fod yn gyfrifol am y budd economaidd sy’n dod yn sgîl eu gweithgarwch. Safbwynt y gymdeithas yw y dylai’r budd economaidd hwnnw fod yn berthnasol i bob rhan o Gymru, nid i Gaerdydd yn unig.		Dr Brooks: One of the things that Professor Hargreaves says in his report is that broadcasters should be responsible for the economic gains that come about because of their activities. The society’s view is that that economic benefit should benefit all parts of Wales and that it should not be centralised in Cardiff.
[308] Bethan Jenkins: Mae S4C yn comisiynu gwaith, felly oni fyddai’r ddadl honno yn fwy perthnasol i’r cwmnïau annibynnol, er mwyn eu hannog i ddatblygu yn y gogledd ac yn y canolbarth, yn hytrach na’u bod yn canoli yng Nghaerdydd?		Bethan Jenkins: S4C commissions work, so is that not a more relevant argument to put to independent producers, to encourage them to develop in north and mid Wales, rather than being centralised in Cardiff?
[309] Dr Brooks: Mae modd dadlau bod y ddau yn berthnasol. Mae’r polisi comisiynu yn berthnasol, wrth reswm, o safbwynt sicrhau’r budd economaidd mwyaf priodol. Fodd bynnag, mae lleoliad S4C a’i hamrywiol adrannau yn ystyriaeth hefyd. Felly, nid yw’r naill yn golygu nad yw’r llall yn berthnasol.		Dr Brooks: One could argue that both are relevant. The commissioning policy is relevant, of course, in ensuring the most appropriate economic advantages. However, another consideration is S4C and its various departments. So, one does not mean that the other is irrelevant.
[310] Mr Nosworthy: Yn ystod y trafodaethau ar Fesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011, gan fod darlledu a thelegyfathrebu wedi eu heithrio yn y setliad presennol, yr oedd problem wrth edrych ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yn cael eu darparu drwy ddarlledwyr, ar y we a ffonau symudol ac ati. Nid oes grym gan y comisiynydd iaith i orfodi’r cwmnïau i ddarparu gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Un peth sy’n ein pryderu ynglŷn â setliad y comisiynydd iaith yw na fydd unrhyw rym ganddo i ymyrryd yn y maes hwnnw. Mae hynny yn eithriad diangen. Pe baech yn edrych ar gydgyfeiriad mewn technolegau, mae’n hollbwysig bod gan y comisiynydd iaith rym dros y maes. Nid yw eithrio darlledu yn y cyd-destun hwnnw yn gwneud synnwyr, yn enwedig wrth weld mwy o wasanaethau yn cael eu darparu ar-lein ac ati.		Mr Nosworthy: During the discussions on the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 the point was made that, as broadcasting and telecommunication were not in the current settlement, it created a problem in looking at public services provided by broadcasters, on mobile phones and the web and so on. The language commissioner does not have the power to mandate the companies to provide services through the medium of Welsh. One thing that concerns us about the language commissioner settlement is that the commissioner will have no power to intervene in this area. That is an unnecessary exemption. If you looked at technological convergence, it is vital that the language commissioner has powers in this area. Exempting broadcasting in that context does not make sense, particularly as more services are provided online and so on.
[311] Bethan Jenkins: Yr wyf yn cytuno â datganoli darlledu; yr oeddech yn gwybod hynny’n barod. Mae pwynt arall yn eich papur yn cynnig y syniad o ardoll ar ddarlledwyr i godi arian ar gyfer darlledu cyhoeddus. Beth mae hynny’n golygu?		Bethan Jenkins: I agree with the devolution of broadcasting; you already knew that. Another point in your paper proposes a levy on broadcasters to raise funds for public service broadcasting. Will you explain what you mean by that?
[312] Mr Nosworthy: Yn ystod ein hymgyrch gyda’r undebau yr oeddem yn cynnig syniadau ynglŷn â ffyrdd eraill o ychwanegu at yr arian sydd ar gael i S4C. Yr oeddem yn cytuno gyda’r NUJ a BECTU, yn benodol, ei fod yn syniad da ystyried ardollau. Mae sawl rheswm am hynny. Mae nifer o gwmnïau yn gwneud llawer o elw o’r maes darlledu ar hyn o bryd nad ydynt yn cyfrannu tuag at gynnwys y gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Er enghraifft, mae elw BSkyB Cyf wedi cynyddu dros £1 biliwn y flwyddyn, ac mae gan Google refeniw o tua $1 biliwn ym Mhrydain yn unig. Felly, mae’r egwyddor yn berthnasol i’r cwmnïau sy’n gwneud llawer o elw, gyda rhan o’r elw hwnnw yn dod ar gefn cynnwys cyhoeddus—mae YouTube, er enghraifft, yn dangos rhai clipiau oddi ar y BBC ac yn y blaen, felly mae’n gwneud elw ar gefn buddsoddiad cyhoeddus. Y rhesymeg yw bod ardoll yn gwneud iawn am y ffaith nad ydynt yn darparu’r cynnwys gwasanaeth cyhoeddus hwnnw.		Mr Nosworthy: During our campaign with the broadcasting unions we proposed new ideas to add to S4C’s coffers. We agreed with the NUJ and BECTU, specifically, that it was a good idea to look at levies. There are a number of reasons for that. A number of companies are making large profits in broadcasting at present that do not contribute to public service content. For example, BSkyB’s profit has increased by more than £1 billion per annum, and Google’s revenue is around $1 billion in Britain alone. Therefore, the principle is relevant to those companies that make huge profits, some of which is made on the back of public broadcast content—YouTube, for example, uses some BBC material and so on, so it is making a profit on the back of public investment. The rationale is that a levy would compensate for the fact that they do not provide that public service content.
[313] Mae nifer o enghreifftiau o sawl gwlad yn Ewrop sy’n dilyn y patrwm hwnnw. Mae sawl ffordd o’i wneud. Mae papur manwl iawn gan y Sefydliad dros Ymchwil Polisi Cyhoeddus yn sôn am bedwar model, â thri ohonynt efallai yn berthnasol i Gymru. Un ohonynt yw ardoll aildrosglwyddiad, sy’n cael ei defnyddio yn y rhan fwyaf o wledydd Ewrop. Amcangyfrifir yn y papur y gallech godi hyd at £70 miliwn gan ddefnyddio dim mwy na’r ardoll fach hon. O’n safbwynt ni, un peth amlwg yw cwmnïau ffonau symudol, sy’n gwneud elw sylweddol iawn heb ddarparu cynnwys gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Mae’r IPPR yn amcangyfrif y gellid codi hyd at £200 miliwn neu £300 miliwn y flwyddyn ar lefel y Deyrnas Unedig.		There are several examples from various countries in Europe that follow that pattern. There are several ways of doing it. The Institute for Public Policy Research has produced a detailed paper that mentions four models, three of which may be relevant to Wales. One such model is the retransmission levy, which is used in the majority of European countries. The paper estimates that you could raise up to £70 million just by using this small levy. From our point of view, an obvious element is mobile phone companies, which make substantial profits without providing any public service content. The IPPR estimates that up to £200 million or £300 million a year could be raised on a UK level.
[314] Bethan Jenkins: Oni fyddai’n rhaid inni gael pwerau i allu gwneud hynny? Ar hyn o bryd, mae hynny’n gorwedd yn San Steffan.		Bethan Jenkins: Would we not need to secure powers to be able to do that? Currently, that lies in Westminster.
[315] Mr Nosworthy: Byddai. Nid oes gennym safbwynt penodol ynglŷn ag a ddylai hynny fod ar lefel Ewropeaidd, lefel Brydeinig neu lefel Gymreig. Mae’n amlwg ein bod yn cefnogi datganoli i Gymru yn ei gyfanrwydd, ond yr hyn yr ydym yn ei ddweud, a lle mae cytuno rhyngom a’r undebau, yw nad yw’r cwmnïau sy’n gwneud elw ar y maes hwn yn cyfrannu at gynnwys Cymraeg o gwbl. Mae adnoddau ar gael y gellid eu defnyddio i gyfrannu at gynnwys Cymraeg.		Mr Nosworthy: Yes. We do not have a particular view with regard to whether that would be at a European level, a British level or a Welsh level. It is clear that we support devolution to Wales in its entirety, but what we are saying, and where there is agreement between us and the unions, is that the companies that profit in this area do not contribute to Welsh content at all. There are resources available that could be used to contribute to Welsh content.
[316] Bethan Jenkins: Yn y Bil cyfathrebu yn San Steffan, bydd pwyslais ar ddadreoleiddio. Beth yw eich pryder o ran hynny, a beth yr hoffech ei weld yn y Bil?		Bethan Jenkins: In the Westminster communications Bill, there will be an emphasis on deregulation. What is your concern with that, and what would you like to see in the Bill?
[317] Dr Brooks: O ran dadreoleiddio, y gofid yw ei fod yn arwain, yn ddamcaniaethol, at dirwedd o ddeunydd teledu a radio lleol heb ddefnydd o’r Gymraeg o gwbl bron. Credwn fod gan bobl Cymru hawl i dderbyn teledu a radio lleol drwy gyfrwng dwy iaith Cymru, ac nid drwy un ohonynt yn unig. Wedi dweud hynny, mae’n werth nodi ei bod yn bosibl bod gennym, yn Llywodraeth Cymru, yr hawl i reoleiddio iaith o safbwynt radio lleol; dyna yw barn gyfreithiol Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg. Mae wedi bod mewn trafodaethau ag Ofcom ac mae’r mater wedi ei gyfeirio at y Gweinidog, Leighton Andrews, am ddyfarniad. Ein safbwynt ni yn y gymdeithas, cyn inni fynd i sôn am y Bil cyfathrebu, yw y gall fod gennym yng Nghymru yn awr yr hawl i reoleiddio iaith ar radio lleol. Yr ydym yn mawr obeithio y daw Leighton Andrews i benderfyniad sy’n ochri â bwrdd yr iaith. Os yw’n gwneud hynny, gobeithiwn y bydd cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i’r penderfyniad hwnnw.		Dr Brooks: On deregulation, the concern is that it leads, theoretically, to a scenario for local radio and television content in which the Welsh language is hardly used. We believe that the people of Wales have a right to receive local television and radio in both of Wales’s languages, not merely in one. Having said that, it is worth noting that it is possible that we have the right, in the Welsh Government, to regulate on the grounds of language with regard to local radio; that is the legal opinion of the Welsh Language Board. It has been in discussion with Ofcom and the matter has been referred to the Minister, Leighton Andrews, for a ruling. Our standpoint in the society, before we go on to discuss the communications Bill, is that we in Wales may already have the right to regulate language in local radio. We sincerely hope that Leighton Andrews sides with the language board. If he does, we hope that there will be cross-party support for that decision.
[318] Maes o law, os yw’n ymddangos nad yw’r hawl yn gorwedd yma—mae’r gymdeithas yn meddwl mai yma mae’r hawl—hoffem weld, yn y Bil cyfathrebu, rhyw gymal neu’i gilydd yn trosglwyddo’r hawl i bennu cynnwys iaith ar gyfer radio a theledu lleol i Lywodraeth Cymru a’r Gweinidog perthnasol. Felly, mae’r mater yn ofid mawr i’r gymdeithas a, rhaid dweud, i siaradwyr Cymraeg yn gyffredinol. Nid oes un pwnc y gwn amdano sydd wedi codi gwrychyn cynifer o bobl.		In due course, if it becomes apparent that the right does not lie here—the society thinks that it does—we would like to see included in the communications Bill some clause or other transferring to the Welsh Government and the relevant Minister the right to determine language content for local radio and television. So, the matter is a cause of great concern for the society and, it must be said, for Welsh-speakers in general. I do not know of another subject that has riled so many people.
[319] Rhoddaf un enghraifft i chi, sef Radio Ceredigion. Yn ôl ym mis Mai, cynhaliwyd ymgynghoriad ynglŷn â Radio Ceredigion yn sgîl dymuniad ei berchnogion—mewn ardal ddwyieithog, â hanner y boblogaeth yn siarad Cymraeg a hanner yn siarad Saesneg—i leihau cyfran y Gymraeg ar y gwasanaeth hwnnw. Yr oedd 94 y cant o’r ymatebwyr yn gwrthod hynny, gan ddweud nad oeddent yn dymuno gweld newid. O ran cynnwys iaith y gwasanaeth, dywedodd Ofcom yn ei adroddiad swyddogol:		I will give you one example, namely Radio Ceredigion. Back in May, a consultation was held on Radio Ceredigion as a result of the owners’ wish—in a bilingual area, where half the population speaks Welsh and half speaks English—to reduce the proportion of Welsh on that service. Of the respondents, 94 per cent rejected that, saying that they did not want change. With regard to content language on that service, Ofcom says in its official report:
[320] ‘ni chynhaliodd Radio Ceredigion Cyf unrhyw ymchwil ynghylch safbwynt poblogaeth gyffredinol yr ardal leol’.		‘Radio Ceredigion Ltd did not, however, carry out any research regarding the views of the general population in the local area’.
[321] Mae hynny’n dangos pa mor beryglus yw’r sefyllfa o ran dadreoleiddio, gan fod cwmnïau yn gallu gwneud beth bynnag maent eisiau, hyd yn oed pan fydd hi’n hollol amlwg fod y boblogaeth leol yn anghytuno.		That shows how dangerous the situation is with regard to deregulation, as companies can do as they want, even when it is blindingly obvious that the local population disagrees.
[322] Bethan Jenkins: Yn sicr, mae’n rhaid gofyn ai elw sydd ar flaen yr agenda yn hytrach na beth yw’r gofyn yn lleol am ddiwylliant ac iaith yn hynny o beth.		Bethan Jenkins: It must certainly be asked whether profit is at the top of the agenda rather than the demand locally for culture and language in that regard.
[323] Dr Brooks: Mae’n ymddangos bod rhannau o Gymru lle mae consensws cryf ar draws y gymdeithas—nid yn unig ymhlith siaradwyr Cymraeg, ond ymhlith siaradwyr Saesneg. Mae consensws cryf yng Ngheredigion fod y boblogaeth leol eisiau gwasanaeth dwyieithog, ond nid yw’n cael hynny oherwydd mympwy un cwmni masnachol yn unig. Mae hynny’n amhriodol ac yn ymyrryd â hawl pobl Cymru i dderbyn gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a Saesneg.		Dr Brooks: It would seem that there are parts of Wales where there is a strong consensus across society—not only among Welsh speakers, but among English speakers. There is strong consensus in Ceredigion that the local population wants a bilingual service, but that is not being provided because of the whim of one commercial company. That is inappropriate and impacts on the right of the people of Wales to receive services in Welsh and English.
[324] Bethan Jenkins: A oes gennych chi unrhyw sylwadau eraill am y Bil cyfathrebu?		Bethan Jenkins: Do you have any other comments on the communications Bill?
[325] Mr Nosworthy: Yr ydym wedi gwneud pwyntiau ynglŷn â beth yr hoffem weld o ran S4C. Nid ydym wedi cael cyfle i sôn am newid cylch gwaith S4C yng nghyd-destun y Bil cyfathrebu. Yr ydym yn gweld hynny fel rhywbeth pwysig iawn wrth ddatblygu’r gwasanaeth, ac yr wyf yn credu bod S4C wedi ei ddweud ei hun, sef ein bod am weld S4C amlgyfryngol, ond mae statud yn dweud y dylai S4C ddarparu gwasanaeth teledu yn unig. Felly, pe bai tri pheth y byddem yn sôn amdanynt yng nghyd-destun y Bil cyfathrebu, y pethau hynny fyddai: fformiwla arian mewn statud i S4C; newid cylch gwaith S4C; a’r hyn y soniodd Simon amdano, sef amodau iaith—sydd ddim yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd fel y cyfryw—ar gyfer radio lleol a theledu lleol.		Mr Nosworthy: We have made points about what we wish to see in the context of S4C. We have not had an opportunity to talk about changing the remit of S4C in the context of the communications Bill. We see that as very important in terms of the service’s development, and I believe that S4C itself has said this, namely that we want to see a multi-media S4C, but the statute book says that S4C should provide a television-only service. So, if there were three things that we would wish to discuss in terms of the communications Bill, they would be: a financial formula in statute for S4C, a change in S4C’s remit and also what Simon talked about, namely language conditions—which currently do not exist as such—for local radio and local television.
[326] Mae’n peri gofid inni fod y Gweinidog yn San Steffan yn gallu dweud nad oes bwriad ganddo i osod unrhyw amodau iaith ar deledu lleol, sy’n mynd yn hollol groes i’r hyn y byddai sefyllfa ddatganoledig yn arwain ati. Mae Radio Ceredigion yn enghraifft berffaith o’r broblem a fyddai’n datblygu o ran teledu lleol os nad oes rhyw fath o reoleiddio’n digwydd.		It is of concern us that the Minister in Westminster can say that he has no intention to place any language conditions on local television, which is entirely contrary to what any devolved scenario would lead to. Radio Ceredigion is a perfect example of the problem that could develop in local television if some sort of regulation does not happen.
[327] Kenneth Skates: Janet, would you like to ask about new business models?
[328] Janet Finch-Saunders: Referring to the proposals for local television, you say that a different policy should be developed in Wales to promote community services. Can you say more about this and explain how it could strengthen the Welsh media landscape?
[329] Mr Nosworthy: Mae gen i gwpwl o bwyntiau i’w gwneud am hynny. O edrych ar sefyllfa’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru o safbwynt Prydeinig, mae BBC Cymru, ITV Cymru ac S4C yn cael eu gweld fel darparwyr gwasanaethau lleol yn hytrach na chenedlaethol. Felly, nid oes bron ddim darpariaeth o ran gwasanaethau lleol gan ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus. O fewn cyfundrefn Gymreig, byddech yn disgwyl gweld rhyw fath o ddarpariaeth leol gan ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus. Yr enghraifft orau i’w rhoi yw’r ffaith y gwnaeth y BBC ymgynghori ar gynlluniau i redeg gwasanaethau lleol, os cofiaf yn iawn. Cafodd hynny ei wrthod ar lefel Brydeinig. Efallai fod hynny’n gwneud synnwyr o bersbectif Prydeinig achos yr oedd y papurau newydd yn gweld y byddai hynny’n gystadleuaeth annheg. Yn y cyd-destun Cymraeg ei iaith, nid yw’n gwneud cymaint o synnwyr i beidio â chael partneriaeth ar lawr gwlad i ddarparu gwasanaethau lleol yn Gymraeg. Felly, yn hytrach na chael model cystadleuol, yr ydym yn sôn am gael model sy’n golygu cydweithio ar lefel leol er mwyn sicrhau bod darpariaeth leol yn Gymraeg.		Mr Nosworthy: I have a couple of points to make on this. If you look at the situation of the media in Wales from a British perspective, BBC Wales, ITV Wales and S4C are perceived as local rather than national service providers. There is therefore virtually no local service provision by public broadcasters. Within a Welsh context, you would expect to see some sort of local provision by public broadcasters. The best example of this is the fact that the BBC consulted on plans to run local services, if I remember correctly. That was rejected at a British level. That might make sense from a British perspective as newspapers perceived that it would create unfair competition. In the context of the Welsh language, it does not make as much sense to not have a grass-roots partnership to provide local services in Welsh. Therefore, rather than have a competitive model, we are talking about having a model that allows collaboration at a local level to ensure local provision in Welsh.
[330] Janet Finch-Saunders: Can you expand on your recommendation about exploiting free culture so that Welsh-language content can be released more widely online?
3.00 p.m.
[331] Mr Nosworthy: Y peth pwysicaf yw bod y mater ar yr agenda. Mae hynny’n beth pwysig i’r Gymraeg. Mae’r Athro Lessig yn amlinellu safbwynt ynglŷn â natur y we yn ei lyfr, Free Culture, lle mae’n dweud bod cynnwys yn cael ei weld mewn dwy ffordd ar hyn o bryd—naill ai bod hawlfraint, lle mae’r cyhoeddwr yn cadw pob hawl, neu ei fod yn gwbl rydd. Yr Athro Lessig yw un o sefydlwyr y grŵp Creative Commons, sy’n cynnig ffordd yn y canol lle gall cyhoeddwyr gadw rhai o’r hawlfreintiau. Fodd bynnag, er enghraifft, os nad elw yw pwrpas y cynnwys, gellir ei ryddhau o dan amodau gwahanol. Mae hynny’n bwysig i’r Gymraeg am fod llawer o gynnwys, fel adnoddau dysgu Cymraeg, nad yw’n cael ei ryddhau ar-lein am wahanol resymau. Yr ydym yn credu y dylai’r Llywodraeth fabwysiadu polisi sy’n ffafrio defnydd mwy rhydd o’r wybodaeth y mae’n ei hariannu. Gwnaeth Huw Jones sôn am ryddhau cynnwys S4C ar YouTube ac ati. Mae honno’n un enghraifft o gynnwys a allai ychwanegu at gorpws yr iaith Gymraeg, sy’n bwysig iawn o ran pobl sy’n dysgu’r iaith ac ati. Gallai’r ffaith bod y cynnwys hwnnw ar gael ar-lein wneud yr iaith yn fwy hygyrch o lawer i bobl eraill. Yr ydym yn sôn yn ein tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig am Lywodraeth Gwlad y Basg yn talu am gynnwys ar Wikipedia. O ran iaith leiafrifol, mae’n bwysig bod mwy o gynnwys yn cael ei ryddhau ar lein er mwyn i bobl ddysgu, defnyddio a gweld yr iaith.		The most important thing is that the issue is on the agenda. That is important for the Welsh language. Professor Lessig outlines a view on the nature of the internet in his book, Free Culture, where he says that content is viewed in two ways at present—either there is copyright, where the publisher retains all rights, or it is entirely free. Professor Lessig is one of those who established the Creative Commons group, which offers an alternative option whereby publishers can retain some of the copyright. However, if the content’s purpose is not-for-profit, it can be released under different conditions. That is important to the Welsh language because a lot of content, such as Welsh-language learning resources, is not released online for various reasons. We believe that the Government should adopt a policy that has a presumption in favour of freer use of the information that it funds. Huw Jones mentioned releasing S4C content on YouTube and so on. That is one example of content that could add to the Welsh-language corpus, which is important to Welsh learners and so on. The fact that that content is available online could make the language far more accessible to other people. In our written evidence, we mention that the Basque Government pays for content on Wikipedia. From the point of view of a minority language, it is important that more content is released online so that people can learn, use and see the language.
[332] Janet Finch-Saunders: What should the Welsh Government’s remaining priorities be in attempting to address the decline in the Welsh media, considering what has been said about powers in this area not being devolved?
[333] Dr Brooks: O ran blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cymru, yw wyf yn credu bod dau beth gwleidyddol yn eu hwynebu. Byddwn yn cytuno, unwaith eto, â’r Athro Hargreaves—dylai’r Llywodraeth fod yn fwy blaengar ac yn fwy dewr, o bosibl, yn y ffordd y mae’n ymwneud â’r maes hwn, er nad yw’n ddatganoledig. Fodd bynnag, fe wnaf i sôn am y ddau beth. Yn gyntaf, yr ydym yn gweld y penderfyniad ynghylch Radio Ceredigion fel y penderfyniad o’r pwys strategol mwyaf sy’n gorwedd ar ddesg y Gweinidog ar hyn o bryd. Nid wyf yn credu y gallwn orbwysleisio hynny—yr ydym yn credu y bydd hwn yn achos prawf ar gyfer y diwydiant yn ei gyfanrwydd. Byddai’n well gennym, yng Nghymdeithas yr Iaith, ei fod yn cefnogi safbwynt y bwrdd, ac os bydd her gyfreithiol maes o law, felly y bydd hi, a byddwn yn wynebu’r her gyfreithiol pan fydd yn codi, yn hytrach na pheidio â gwneud y penderfyniad er mwyn osgoi hynny, gan weld y mater yn cael ei ddiffinio yn y llysoedd.		Dr Brooks: As regards the Welsh Government’s priorities, I think that it is facing two political issues. I would agree, once again, with Professor Hargreaves, in that the Government should be more innovative, and braver, possibly, in the way in which it engages with this field, even though it is not devolved. However, I will turn to the two issues. We consider the decision on Radio Ceredigion to be the decision of the highest strategic importance that is lying on the Minister’s desk at present. I do not think that that can be overemphasised—this is going to be a test case for the industry as a whole. We, in Cymdeithas yr Iaith, would prefer it to support the Welsh Language Board’s stance, and if there is going to be a legal challenge, so be it, and we will face that challenge when it comes, rather than refusing to make the decision in order to avoid this, and seeing the issue being defined in court.
[334] Y tu hwnt i hynny, mae angen inni edrych ar y Bil cyfathrebu ar hyd y llinellau y mae Bethan a Colin wedi cyfeirio atynt eisoes—sef, bod angen sicrhau cyllid i S4C, gan gynnwys chwyddiant, a bod angen i gylch gorchwyl S4C gael ei ailddiffinio mewn modd sy’n golygu bod y sianel yn gallu ymateb i her yr oes amlgyfryngol ac aml-lwyfan. Ar ben hynny, yr ydym yn credu ei bod yn hollbwysig, os nad ydym yn gallu delio â’r mater hwn o bennu iaith radio a theledu lleol yng Nghymru—ac yr wyf am bwysleisio ein bod yn credu bod y grym yn gorwedd yma—y dylai’r peth gael ei ddatganoli. Dyna yw’r blaenoriaethau gwleidyddol inni, fel mudiad, ar hyn o bryd.		Beyond that, we need to look at the communications Bill along the lines that Bethan and Colin have already referred to—that is, that funding must be secured for S4C, linked to inflation, and that S4C’s terms of reference should be redefined in a way that enables the channel to respond to the challenges of the multimedia and multiplatform age. In addition, we believe that it is vital, if we cannot deal with the issue of determining the language of local radio and television in Wales—and I would like to emphasise that we believe that that power lies here—that it should be devolved. Those are our political priorities, as an organisation, at present.
[335] Janet Finch-Saunders: Do you think that enough attention has been paid to the Ian Hargreaves report or do you think that it should be used for debate in the Chamber?
[336] Dr Brooks: Mae’n adroddiad diddorol, ac mae ganddo gryfderau a gwendidau—yr wyf wedi darllen yr adroddiad ar ei hyd. Mae’n bosibl y gellid dadlau nad yw’r adroddiad yn gwneud digon ynghylch y Gymraeg yn benodol. Nid oes cymaint â hynny o dystiolaeth ynghylch y cyfryngau Cymraeg, heblaw am S4C, yn yr adroddiad ei hun. Mae hwnnw’n wendid posibl. Mae angen i’r Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth ystyried tystiolaeth yn ymwneud â chyfryngau Cymraeg yn benodol, am eu bod mewn sefyllfa ychydig bach yn wahanol i’r cyfryngau Saesneg yng Nghymru.		Dr Brooks: It is an interesting report and it has its strengths and weaknesses—I have read it in its entirety. It could be argued that the report does not say enough about the Welsh language specifically. There is not that much evidence about the Welsh-language media, with the exception of S4C, in the report itself. That is a possible weakness. The Assembly and the Government need to consider evidence that relates specifically to Welsh-language media, because its situation is a little different from that of English-language media in Wales.
[337] Fodd bynnag, o ran yr adroddiad yn ei gyfanrwydd, yr wyf yn tueddu rhannu barn y mwyafrif, sef bod yr adroddiad wedi cael ei gomisiynu ac felly mae’n briodol bod darnau ohono yn cael eu gweithredu. Yr ydym yn cytuno gyda rhai o sylwadau’r Athro Hargreaves, er enghraifft, ar fudd economaidd. Mae hwnnw’n fater pwysig a byddwn yn ychwanegu ei bod yn bwysig bod y budd economaidd hwnnw yn mynd i bob rhan o Gymru, gan gynnwys y rhannau o Gymru sydd yn llai breintiedig ar hyn o bryd na’r brifddinas. Yr ydym yn awyddus i beidio â gweld canoli pellach ar y cyfryngau Cymraeg a Chymreig yng Nghaerdydd. Nid oes gennym ddim byd yn erbyn Caerdydd, wrth reswm, ond yr ydym yn dymuno bod cacen y budd economaidd yn cael ei rhannu’n deg rhwng pob rhan o Gymru.		However, in terms of the report in its entirety, I tend to share the majority view, which is that the report was commissioned and therefore it is appropriate that sections of it should be implemented. We agree with some of Professor Hargreaves’s comments, such as those on economic gain. That is an important issue and I would add that it is important that those economic gains should reach all parts of Wales, including those parts of Wales that are currently more disadvantaged than the capital city. We are firmly of the view that there should be no further centralisation of the Welsh-language and Welsh media in Cardiff. We do not have anything against Cardiff, naturally, but we would want to see the cake of economic gain being shared more equitably between all parts of Wales.
[338] Bethan Jenkins: Mae gennyf gwestiwn ynglŷn â phapurau newydd. Yr oedd dadl ar y pryd rhwng y Llywodraeth a phobl yng Nghymru am greu papur newydd Y Byd. Mae Golwg360 yn bodoli yn awr, a chlywsom gan y cwmni ei fod yn edrych ar ddatblygu’r busnes ac ar sut y gall agor allan i syniadau a modelau newydd. Yn ogystal, ysgrifennais erthygl dros y penwythnos yn cynnig syniadau. Er enghraifft, gellid cael mwy o fewnbwn Cymraeg yn y Western Mail, pe bai’r model hwnnw’n wahanol yn y dyfodol. Dim ond syniadau yw’r rheini, wrth gwrs. Beth yn eich barn chi fyddai’n syniad da ar gyfer unrhyw fodelau newydd yn y maes cyfrwng Cymraeg o ran papurau newydd a deunydd ar-lein, neu a oes modd cael cydweithrediad amlblatfform yn hynny o beth?		Bethan Jenkins: I have a question on newspapers. There was a debate at the time between the Government and the people of Wales in relation to creating the newspaper Y Byd. Golwg360 now exists and we have heard from the company that is looking to develop the business and to see how it could be opened out to include new models and ideas. I also wrote an article over the weekend proposing ideas, such as having greater Welsh-language input in the Western Mail, if that model were to be different in the future. Those are only ideas, of course. What do you think would be a good idea for any new models in the Welsh-language field in terms of newspapers or online content, or is there a way of ensuring multiplatform collaboration in that regard?
[339] Dr Brooks: Yr oedd gennych chi ddau gwestiwn. O ran cynnwys ar-lein, yr wyf am adael i Bethan a Colin ateb. O safbwynt y wasg brint, y peth cyntaf i’w ddweud yw ein bod yn gefnogol iawn i’r Western Mail ac i safbwynt Undeb Cenedlaethol y Newyddiadurwyr a’r dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd gan Martin Shipton ichi yn ddiweddar. Mae’n bwysig inni gofio hefyd y bu trafodaeth yn y Gymraeg ynglŷn â pha mor briodol yw hi i gefnogi papur newydd dyddiol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Penderfyniad y Llywodraeth flaenorol oedd peidio â chefnogi hynny. Ein teimlad ni yw y dylai’r cynllun hwnnw fod wedi cael ei gefnogi. Felly, pe baem yn mynd ar hyd trywydd lle mae papurau newydd yn derbyn arian cyhoeddus—pe bai hynny’n dod yn rhan o’r agenda wleidyddol—byddai’n briodol i edrych, yn ogystal ag ar y Western Mail, ar ddymuniad y gymdeithas sifil Gymraeg ei hiaith bod papur dyddiol Cymraeg hefyd. Byddai hynny ond yn deg. Fodd bynnag, wedi dweud hynny, yr ydym yn cefnogi’r sefyllfa yn y Western Mail ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf am bwysleisio hynny.		Dr Brooks: There were two questions there. In terms of online content, I will leave it to Bethan and Colin to respond. With regard to the print media, the first thing to state is that we are very supportive of the Western Mail and to the stance of the NUJ and the evidence provided recently by Martin Shipton to you. It is also important to bear in mind that there has been a debate through the medium of Welsh as to the appropriateness of supporting a Welsh-language daily newspaper. The decision of the previous Government was not to offer that support. We feel that that scheme should have received support. Therefore, if we were to go down a route in which newspapers received public funding—should that become part of the political agenda—it would be appropriate to look not only at the Western Mail, but at the aspiration within Welsh-speaking civil society that there should be a Welsh-language daily newspaper too. That would only be fair. However, having said that, we support the situation in the Western Mail at present. I want to emphasise that.
[340] Mr Nosworthy: Ynglŷn â chynnwys ar-lein, yr hyn yr ydym wedi ei bwysleisio yn ystod ein hymgyrch barhaol dros S4C yw bod yn rhaid i S4C wneud llawer iawn mwy a gweld ei hun yn fwy na sianel deledu yn unig. Felly, mae’n dod yn ôl eto at y Bil cyfathrebu a newid cylch gwaith S4C. Yr wyf yn credu bod sgôp i wneud llawer iawn mwy o bethau ar-lein drwy S4C, er mwyn iddi weld ei hun fel mwy na sianel deledu yn unig. Dyna’r hyn yr ydym yn ei bwysleisio fel cymdeithas.		Mr Nosworthy: In relation to online content, what we have been emphasising during our continuing campaign over S4C is that S4C has to do much more than just be and see itself as a television channel. Therefore, it once again comes back to the Communications Bill and changing the remit of S4C. I believe there is huge scope to do much more online through S4C, so that it sees itself as more than just a television channel. That is what we are emphasising as a society.
[341] Ms Williams: O ran yr hyn a ddywedais yn gynharach am gael ein gadael ar ein hôl gan ddatblygiadau mewn cyfryngau digidol, mae’r ffaith bod newyddion ar-lein drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn Golwg360 yn gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn, wrth gwrs. Fodd bynnag, ar yr un pryd, mae’n rhaid inni gofio nad oes gan bawb fynediad hawdd i’r we, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig lle nad yw band llydan ar gael yn hawdd i bobl a lle nad yw pobl yn gweithio o flaen cyfrifiadur. Felly, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gweld rhywbeth argraffedig. Dyna yw barn y gymdeithas.		Ms Williams: In terms of what I said earlier about being left behind by developments in digital media, the fact that Golwg360 provides online Welsh-medium news content is a step in the right direction, of course. However, at the same time, we must bear in mind that not everyone has easy access to the web, particularly in rural areas, where broadband is not as easily available to people and where people do not work in front of computers. Therefore, it is important that we see something in print. That is the view of the society.
[342] Mr Nosworthy: Mae’n rhaid cofio’r cyd-destun hefyd. Yr ydym wedi gweld twf enfawr yn y cyfryngau Saesneg eu hiaith. Yr ydym wedi symud oddi wrth y sefyllfa a oedd yn bodoli pan sefydlwyd S4C, lle’r oedd pedair sianel deledu. Mae gennym gannoedd yn awr. Yn ogystal, yr ydym wedi gweld twf enfawr yng ngwasanaethau’r BBC yn Saesneg ar-lein. Nid ydym wedi gweld yr un fath o dwf yn y Gymraeg. Felly, gwelwn fod anghydbwysedd yn y ffordd y mae’r gwasanaethau wedi datblygu yn y ddwy iaith. Felly, wrth i ddarlledwyr edrych i wneud toriadau, rhaid cofio nad yw’r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg wedi gweld yr un twf a welwyd yn y cyfryngau Saesneg.		Mr Nosworthy: We also need to bear in mind that the context is that we have seen a boom in English-language media. We have moved away from the position at the time when S4C was established, when there were four television channels. There are now hundreds. We have also seen a boom in online English-language BBC services. We have not seen the same kind of growth in Welsh-language provision. So, we see that there is an imbalance in the way in which services have developed in the two languages. So, as broadcasters look to make cuts, it must be remembered that the Welsh-language provision has not seen the same growth as English-language media.
[343] Kenneth Skates: Thank you for attending today. A transcript of today’s proceedings will be sent to you, which you can check for accuracy. Thank you very much.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 3.10 p.m. The meeting ended at 3.10 p.m.